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phnert44 |
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| Posted: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 at
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D, you fail to understand some of the points made. It will not be the new business model when the membership doesnt meet the minimum to warrant a profit. You can wish for a better product but that doesnt make it so. The rate they charge is not acceptable to the audience. This facebook approach will not win for games. It needs excellence.
I understand their approach, my point is the product has to be superior for the market to pay. Once the renewal rate is established they will get the message. Players will not mind ads if there is excellence.... its proven on every sucessful game website.
The market for EA games is PS3 and Xbox, not TW PC 2010 golf, that is the point. They will push those "gamepad" games since the pc game model doesn't work. I'm just advising the online failure as a prediction of the low renewal rates.
The only chance at success with the online game would have been a knockout version, which you seem to believe will happen at some point. The future of gaming sadly is the console, with the gamepad or wii. Not for serious gamers. Thats all.
The real pc golfers are already setting up game servers to continue to play TW08, so its a mute point anyway. I can only hope "course downloads " site can continue to provide their excellent service. I as many have no problem paying , since it is paying for excellence.
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| Posted: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 at
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"If EA had truely listen to us rather than just the parts they wanted to hear, most if not all of the items I listed would have been the priority not the to be added. That is one of the reasons the sales have declined, is that as each title has progressed sales have declined as they deviated from the core success. We are the ones that have bought every edition, not the casual console type gamers.
EA Sports, and Electronic Arts are not the first publisher to deviate away from the market segment that made the platform successful, Activision has been doing it all along. Each new release brings lower sales than the previous release.
We should be posting in the EA Forums, but quite honestly there are way too many trolls for me to even be bothered going there. I will wait and see. Maybe EA will surprise me, which is something they have failed to do so for many years, but even a blind squirrel finds an acorn once and a while." |
What you fail to realize is that the typical hardcore simulation user is not the demographic that ensures success of the game. True, they did take features out of the game progressively, but they really did not target the casual user along with the hardocre sim users which is ultimately why the game failed commercially along with a failure to introduce new technology to the PC version. TWO allows them to do just this.
TW PC has NOT been successful, so your second statement makes no sense. See my comments above.
Your last statement is simply false. We have 5 moderators and we have not had any major issues with trolls for a LONG time. If any show up, they are quickly handled with little to no impact to the community. At the end of the day, you have a passion for TW PC, but not posting at the EA forums means your passion and others is falling by the wayside. If TW PC's future is truly important to you and others, there is NO excuse for not communicating your feedback to EA. Otherwise, they do not know you exist. |
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| Posted: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 at
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"D, you fail to understand some of the points made. It will not be the new business model when the membership doesnt meet the minimum to warrant a profit. You can wish for a better product but that doesnt make it so. The rate they charge is not acceptable to the audience. This facebook approach will not win for games. It needs excellence.
I understand their approach, my point is the product has to be superior for the market to pay. Once the renewal rate is established they will get the message. Players will not mind ads if there is excellence.... its proven on every sucessful game website.
The market for EA games is PS3 and Xbox, not TW PC 2010 golf, that is the point. They will push those "gamepad" games since the pc game model doesn't work. I'm just advising the online failure as a prediction of the low renewal rates.
The only chance at success with the online game would have been a knockout version, which you seem to believe will happen at some point. The future of gaming sadly is the console, with the gamepad or wii. Not for serious gamers. Thats all.
The real pc golfers are already setting up game servers to continue to play TW08, so its a mute point anyway. I can only hope "course downloads " site can continue to provide their excellent service. I as many have no problem paying , since it is paying for excellence.
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Pure speculation on your part. How you could possibly know anything about how TWO is doing commercially or how it will do is nothing but opinion and based upon NO FACTS. You really don't know what EA's strategy is for TWO based upon your comments above. It is obvious you have made your mind up as to what it will be and that it will fail because it is not TW08 in a new box. I guess we will see how this pans out. I prefer not to predict anything as NO ONE here nor myself know for sure just how well TWO is doing. Forum polls are hardly a barometer of how a game is doing since 95%+ of total users never visit the TWO forums.... |
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jmeier |
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| Posted: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 at
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| edited by: jmeier on
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| Tim, If you will be kind enough to direct me to the best possible venue for directing my opinions to EA, I will gladly give it another try. If I do not at least do that, then I would have to be considered on of those general trolls :) Also just for the record, I am in no way attacking your viewpoint or being argumentative. The discussion is valuable regardless of the difference of opinions Thanks. |
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| Tour Manager and Design Manager of the CGX Tour, the best place online for PGA Style tournament play on custom courses. Often imitated, never duplicated. |
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sandsaver01 |
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| Posted: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 at
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Why keep posting here, Tim?
Whether or not we (the PC Sim golfer community) understand EA's thinking about the TWO business model or not, I think we understand that the hardcore sim golfer community is not big enough to be profitable for any company. I think that our demographic will have to be satisfied with playing Clambakers and PGAX from now on, although that is tough for the Novice players, since neither of those groups has Novice games. If you look at the PGAX site, you can see that less than 1% of the people who responded to their poll said they would switch to TWO when EASO went dark.
So again, why do you bother to keep posting here? |
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| Posted: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 at
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Well said Mike, I don't understand why Tim cruises this site for a venue that is rapidly dying. Why? Again, I will state how I know that TW10 will fail. It's based upon history and factual data. There is a product, a market and a customer. History tells us since the beginning of time that if the product offered is not very good, there is not much of a market and customer demand. Supply and Demand, that's how I know. Economics. Even when this may be the only product available.
So I can predict the end result, based upon the history of Sales and Marketing. Customer Satisfication remains the #1 metric and predictor for sucess.
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| Posted: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 at
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Sorry, for the xtra post. I do appreciate the right to express my opinion. I wanted to add the reason I don't write to EA is as you know the decision has been made away from pc cd TW game. The emphasis is on console gaming and this attempt at online streaming gaming. So it would waste everyone's time to write to them since we are such a small group as was mentioned. So thats why I don't communicate to EA. Thier decision is based on not making money on cd games and focusing on console games except for the golf and fifa venture. I get it.
I only wish their product was comparable or would be at some future point, but the consumer also wants value. If the game is free, more will play, $60 less will play based upon perceived value. The market is larger for Wii, ps3 and xbox and they pay.
IMO, Madden 10 and MLB10the Show are very good console games with the gamepad. TW10 unfortunately is not. For the pc, Madden 08 is very good and many still play in addition to the last great pc baseball game MVP05 the EA classic! You can play these games IP to IP very well amoung friends. MVP05 is hard to get and expensive even used.
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| Posted: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 at
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| "Tim, If you will be kind enough to direct me to the best possible venue for directing my opinions to EA, I will gladly give it another try. If I do not at least do that, then I would have to be considered on of those general trolls :) Also just for the record, I am in no way attacking your viewpoint or being argumentative. The discussion is valuable regardless of the difference of opinions Thanks." |
Here you go...
http://forum.ea.com/eaforum/categories/show/174.page
http://forum.ea.com/eaforum/forums/show/561.page |
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| Posted: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 at
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"Why keep posting here, Tim?
Whether or not we (the PC Sim golfer community) understand EA's thinking about the TWO business model or not, I think we understand that the hardcore sim golfer community is not big enough to be profitable for any company. I think that our demographic will have to be satisfied with playing Clambakers and PGAX from now on, although that is tough for the Novice players, since neither of those groups has Novice games. If you look at the PGAX site, you can see that less than 1% of the people who responded to their poll said they would switch to TWO when EASO went dark.
So again, why do you bother to keep posting here?" |
Because I have just as much right to post my opinions here as you do. I also don't mind correcting misinformation that I see posted from time to time either and trust me, there has been a fair amount of it being posted here and in other threads.
What you fail to understand is that I want the same things everyone here wants. A "better than TW08" experience on the PC. TWO is not there yet and it does have a way to go. However, I have stopped playing TW08 as I have played over 1000 rounds and I feel like I am wasting my time playing a game that is NEVER going to improve. TWO represents EA opportunity to do something unique and hopefully better than TW08 ever was. If they don't, then TWO will be the last PC version of TW you will ever see. If they can't improve on a product that failed MISERABLY from a commercial standpoint (TW08), then they should bow out of the PC Golf business. Fact is, they KNOW THIS. What many of you here are criticizing is that TWO does not yet have the features that 08 had. It is coming, but it is a slow process re-writing code from the ground up. I respect each and everyone's opinion as to why they are not supporting TWO by purchasing a subscription. In return I expect the same respect for those who have purchased the game to be a part of something that will ultimately be special for the TW PC community. THAT is why I post here. |
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| Posted: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 at
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| "Sorry, for the xtra post. I do appreciate the right to express my opinion. I wanted to add the reason I don't write to EA is as you know the decision has been made away from pc cd TW game. The emphasis is on console gaming and this attempt at online streaming gaming. So it would waste everyone's time to write to them since we are such a small group as was mentioned. So thats why I don't communicate to EA. Thier decision is based on not making money on cd games and focusing on console games except for the golf and fifa venture. I get it." |
I am not sure why you are SO against the streaming online game that is TWO. It WOULD be a waste of your time to try to convince them to go back to DVD-based PC Sports games, but it would NOT be a waste of your time to tell EA what you would like to see in TWO. However, if you choose to stay here and not communicate with EA, then you aren't really interested in the future of TW PC. Sorry you feel the way you do.
As far as making money, if you were EA and you were averaging 800-900,000 copies of your PC product up to TW2005, then you end up selling less than 200,000 copies of TW08, what would YOU do? You are damn straight it is based upon making money because if they don't, we end up with TW09 which never came out BECAUSE 08 did so poorly. Is that what YOU want? |
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| Posted: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 at
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DM, once again you confuse my dilemma. I understand why EA chooses to drop the pc cd line. I accept it. You confuse my posts with others. It's economics, why keep repeating it? Oh and the piracy reason he he. (doesn't effect other pc games not dropped, Sims.)EA has the right to make more money. Fine. I get that, always did.
My gripe has been all along the same; The poor quality product compared to TW08 cd. That's it. You replace a product thats free after the $39 cd purchase and replace it with a $60 value of lesser value. You want me to communicate that? They don't know we want a course designer? more courses? better graphics? huh? That's been on very beta testing forum. Ok, I will let them know that most of us would like more courses, be able to design, make our own character avitars, smooth play like tw08, no silly putting grids with blinkers, etc...I will do that.
I except your recommendation.
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| Posted: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 at
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"DM, once again you confuse my dilemma. I understand why EA chooses to drop the pc cd line. I accept it. You confuse my posts with others. It's economics, why keep repeating it? Oh and the piracy reason he he. (doesn't effect other pc games not dropped, Sims.)EA has the right to make more money. Fine. I get that, always did.
My gripe has been all along the same; The poor quality product compared to TW08 cd. That's it. You replace a product thats free after the $39 cd purchase and replace it with a $60 value of lesser value. You want me to communicate that? They don't know we want a course designer? more courses? better graphics? huh? That's been on very beta testing forum. Ok, I will let them know that most of us would like more courses, be able to design, make our own character avitars, smooth play like tw08, no silly putting grids with blinkers, etc...I will do that.
I except your recommendation.
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You want to compare a game like the Sims to TW PC? Seriously? A game that sells several MILLION copies every year versus one that has yet to break ONE MILLION copies in its history? Um, okay....
I am not arguing that TW08 is a better overall value than TWO TODAY. They also know what the community wants, but delivering this will take time. EA has not published a course architect (not counting the TW02-06 CA as that was Headgate's tool, not EA's and was POORLY supported by both companies) since TW2000. They are having to build a CA from the ground up. Up til now, it has taken a back seat to other more important features that TWO is coming out with. Surely you can understand the need to get the core game right don't you? You also realize TWO shipped with only 4 less courses than TW08, right? Originally they told everyone 6 courses at release. Ten is MUCH better and they have already released another course the first week which makes 11. They will be releasing a new course every month for the foreseeable future until they are able to release a CA. There are also EULA issues with a CA because if EA hosts a user made course, there will likely be some issue with how the course is named. If someone creates Augusta National, I am not sure EA could host the course on their server for users to play without some sort of disclaimer that the course is not officially licensed. So there are many issues with a CA that most users are not aware of.
TWO plays as smooth if not smoother for me on both laptop and desktop than TW08 did. The grids are like they are for a very important reason. If you play TW08 with Grids on and you apply ANY AA (antialiasing), the grid is USELESS because the AA smooths out the grid. TWO's grid is better because you can read the greens WITH or WITHOUT AA. As the game evolves, EA is going to be adding 3D grass to the courses once they figure out how to minimize the impact the added objects and textures will add to the bandwidth requirements. All that being said, they are adding everything you posted above and more ASAP. Like I have stated in previous posts, I respect how people feel about TWO today even though we may disagree on some aspects of it. However, the notion that EA does not listen to the TW PC community is flat out wrong. So is the notion that they have given up on TW PC users.... |
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sandsaver01 |
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| Posted: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 at
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| Tim -of course you have every right to post here, no one disputes that (I am sure you contribute to the site, right). And I understand how EA has grand plans to make TWO the greatest on-line golf game ever. That said, If it does, I may pay for it, but until then, I will not subsidize your research by buying an unfinished product(let's see a drug company try that one :-) ). Get me turn-based multiplayer, CA, more camera angles, and some other stuff all the other sim golfers have asked for, and maybe I will pay. It is my suspicion, though, that if you can find enough arcade players to pay for TWO the way it is, all the goodies will fail to materialize. And that is OK, also - I understand and support the profit motive in business. |
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| Posted: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 at
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| "It is my suspicion, though, that if you can find enough arcade players to pay for TWO the way it is, all the goodies will fail to materialize. And that is OK, also - I understand and support the profit motive in business." |
Then I guess you refuse to acknowledge that this is NOT EA's strategy....so be it. |
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vexxxboy |
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| Posted: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 at
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| "It is my suspicion, though, that if you can find enough arcade players to pay for TWO the way it is, all the goodies will fail to materialize. And that is OK, also - I understand and support the profit motive in business." |
Then I guess you refuse to acknowledge that this is NOT EA's strategy....so be it." |
Tend to agree with Tim here , i cant see EA not trying to keep both sides happy, if they just go after the arcade side and ignore the sim side then that is not a great business decision, in other words why not do both and increase your revenues and profits. My view of the game is that i quite like it but it just hasn't got what i want out of a golf game yet,(and not having a credit card doesn't help lol)but when it doses i will look at it again. |
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| Posted: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 at
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Tend to agree with Tim here , i cant see EA not trying to keep both sides happy, if they just go after the arcade side and ignore the sim side then that is not a great business decision, in other words why not do both and increase your revenues and profits. My view of the game is that i quite like it but it just hasn't got what i want out of a golf game yet,(and not having a credit card doesn't help lol)but when it doses i will look at it again." |
Brent - the problem is that the sim community is MAYBE 1000 players max (count all the players at the sim sites, like PGAX, 24Hr Gaming, Clams, etc and take out the duplicates). If you get ALL of those you take in 60K to 100K per year, which doesn't even pay for one developer salary and benefits (except for those outsourced to India), so I can't see that it makes much business sense to go beyond what it takes to make the Arcade crowd happy. |
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davy1960hill |
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| Posted: Thursday, April 22, 2010 at
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| edited by: davy1960hill on
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Sorry Tim but it was, a whole 10 months of it (;and the rest).
So what if they tack on a few (;" |
Sorry Tim but it was, a whole 10 months of it (;and the rest).
So what if they tack on a few (;poorly thought out,un-tested, half developed and designed without ther slightest knowledge of the game)features that we want onto a game that is so arcade and bling that we arent interested?
The reason i say poorly thought out,un-tested, half developed and designed without the slightest knowledge of the game is because that is how it has gone so far. They even had some of the best of the best course designers offer to help test their courses prior to release (;since so many were appalling) and the offer was totally ignored and essentially snubbed.
Just my opinion, Tim - your optimism is nice but surprises me, I am the eternal optmomist and saw the light at the end of this particular tunnel some time ago! |
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| Posted: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 at
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| our club mercenaries, although some have purchased a sub to TWO-10, have downloaded and tried hamachi server and it works well with 2008 game...it is free online server...www.hamachi.com for those who want to remain in 08 play..of course you will have to use a voice server to set and invite friends into game, but it is an alternative to buying into EA 2010...as it appears they are trying to force players to subscribe to substandard game they are offering. |
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Australia |
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| Joined: 3/10/2007 |
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B-Day: 6/30/1960 (63) |
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Posts: 31 |
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| Posted: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 at
8:01:33 PM |
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Many TW08 players are dissatisfied (to say the least) with TWO.
Hamachi is a good option for fun games but requires a little computer savvy and is not an option for running tours on.
Clambakers and PGAX will be continuing to run tours and more on TW08
Clambakers have run thier tour on their own launcher (not requiring EASO) succesfully for some years and will continue to do so after May 11.
PGAX will be using a launcher similar to Clambakers after May 11, and are planning to create a full game server as well, so that non tour games will be able to be played. PGAX is currently an expert only tour, but there are also plans to branch out into other levels.
There is no need for anyone to feel they have to buy a product they do not like simply to continue playing on line with their friends :) |
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davy1960hill Signature |
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Von010 |
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General Member |
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United Kingdom |
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| Joined: 4/1/2010 |
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Posts: 2 |
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| Posted: Thursday, April 29, 2010 at
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"Hi Fellow
Go to...GoGamer.com...I bought two copies of TW08 about two weeks
ago...no problem. Order them on Sunday you should get them by Thursday.
Good Luck
dawg8/sd4620
This is to Von010" |
Excellent! Cheers mate! |
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