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Hiker Bob |
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B-Day: 6/8/1962 (61) |
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| Posted: Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at
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| edited by: Hiker Bob on
Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at
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It has been 14 years since the glory days of the EA Sports golf franchise glory days, and now I am back to designing golf courses again. Should be a good retirement project to keep me busy.
And what is this Skamania thing, some sort of new gourmet dish? haha. I moved to Skamania County, home of Mount St. Helens the volcano and of Sasquatch. And since I am now next to a golf course, why not get back into the swing. The beautiful Skamania 18-hole course was a victim of the pandemic, so it begs to live on in the virtual world.
So how does a TW designer get back into this? A struggle for sure, but I think it will be worth it to do all the customizing needed to make a unique course. I tried out TGC/2K21 and discovered pluses and minuses for each vs. the EA Course Architect. I will go into that in another post in this thread.
1. The TW08 compatibility thing. Unfortunately, it is rather hard to run XP and Win10 on the same machine to design courses. The 4095 RAM limit is just not enough to do both, so you have to flip the RAM back and forth either on Windows 10/11 or inside the XP virtual machine. Two computers would be better, one for designing, and another for testing.
2. Setting up the virtual XP machine is tough, but once you are there, it opens a whole world of free software possibilities. I discovered that you can get free Photoshop CS2 for Windows XP at this link: https://archive.org/details/Adobe-CS2
3. For using Terrain Assist, it is still disappointing that USGS DEM data is so bad. It really only helps get partially through the elevation work on a course with lots of elevation changes. I found some tricks to get some better data and help with the elevation work that I will go into depth in another post.
4. The tools and tips on this site are a real help. Make sure to read, read, read.
5. And the CLS work by Quietly, amazing. I am not there yet on getting into that in-depth, but you can bet that is coming.
I will be posting my progress on the course and hoping for some feedback along the way.
Here *was* the signature 4th hole in real life.
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Gunpower61 |
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B-Day: 4/30/1961 (62) |
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| Posted: Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at
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| Hiya Hiker Bob, great news you are back and designing a new course, big thanks for the update. |
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Hiker Bob |
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B-Day: 6/8/1962 (61) |
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| Posted: Thursday, April 14, 2022 at
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Hey, before I get into Terrain Assist, courses in TGC using LiDAR, bigger panos, and other things, I of course could not re-install GMAX without the registry keys. You can no longer contact anyone to get an old copy registered, since Turbosquid dropped it. So since I found Photoshop CS2 on Internet Archive, I thought I would look to see if they have GMAX with registry keys. Lo and behold they do!
https://archive.org/details/gmax-1.2-with-registration-key
Of course I am starting to build tees and greens, as I just gotta design now, haha.
Now I just need some sort of 3D creation tool (no more free CATIA from the company), so the set up continues. No, I can't do objects in GMAX, ugh. Any help suggesting a good 3D object tool creation would be welcome! |
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Hiker Bob |
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B-Day: 6/8/1962 (61) |
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| Posted: Friday, April 15, 2022 at
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| edited by: Hiker Bob on
Friday, April 15, 2022 at
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Oh, I should have provided some more instructions on setting up GMAX.
You have to set up the right folder structure in order for the registry entries to work. Add folders underneath you user name like this:
C:\Users\*username*\Software\Autodesk\gmax\
Then copy the files from the zip file into the gmax directory. Inside is a folder with the registration keys. Just run the two .REG files to set the entries. Seems to work in Windows 10, so I bet it will for any Windows operating system.
Remember that the textures have to be added to your objects within GMAX, they can not be on the objects already, just does not work. Then the TWGExport_GMAX.ms script goes under \scripts\startup\. Details of course in the old tutorial:
http://coursedownloads.com/extras/details.asp?id=663
Custom structures are just one reason to continue using TW08. Just can not get this elsewhere. |
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Bobby Bolin |
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| Posted: Friday, April 15, 2022 at
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| I'm so jealous of those of you who make structures. I do not have the computer resources or the ability to do it. Thanks for your library and pano contributions! |
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Hiker Bob |
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B-Day: 6/8/1962 (61) |
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| Posted: Saturday, April 16, 2022 at
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Your welcome Bobby. I remember you were pre-teen when this all started. And you are still around, and one of the most knowledgeable now.
So I want to talk about a thing near and dear for me, elevation work. This Skamania course has some very detailed terrain, large bumps in sloped fairways, and huge elevation changes. The highest tee is at 411 ft. and the lowest green is at 164 ft. That is a difference of 247 ft!
The USGS DEMs are just not very detailed. They really just give you the basic starting elevations with all terrain washed out in general slopes. I just had to find something better. I was able to set up The Golf Club 2019 using LiDAR data with the designer tool from ChadGolf. This is really something amazing. Although other limitations with TGC brought me back to do this course in TW08. The main reasons are a customized panorama and customized textures. The Skamania course is all about the mountain views and the wooded natural setting with many lakes and creeks. Have to do that in TW08, since TGC has limited libraries.
The attachment at the bottom shows a comparison of using a couple different methods with Terrain Assist, and what you get out of LiDAR data, if you can find it for your course. You have to bring the images up closely to see the difference. Focus on the two creeks that join coming out of the two lakes.
The image on the left shows using Terrain Assist with a USGS DEM with a DOQQ orthophoto. There is no real detail anywhere. This is what I've done time and time again, and the elevation work is a killer.
The center images shows what I did by using data from Google Earth. The image is from 2017 and I did something totally insane for the elevations. Google Earth gives you elevations in the lower right, but you can not get them out. You have to use an API to pull elevations, at a cost of $5 per 1000 points. I figured it would cost about $100, plus I would have to program something to follow their rules for the amount of data you can pull at a time.
So I created a grid of points in a .kml file and imported them into Google Earth, then hovered over each one and wrote down the elevations (three weeks work). Then I created my own DEM. Yeah, I am one crazy person. But you can see the creek beds in the picture.
The right images shows what you get from TGC with LiDAR data. Ignore the red lakes with holes, as that is because LiDAR data is incomplete. It is supposed to be relatively easy to fix up. But the result is truly incredible. I am using this as reference to copy the terrain sculpting.
So if you want to do a real course, and do not care about the backdrop or textures, you might want to check out the TGC designer. Sure is nice to be able to fly around the course as you are working. But if you just gotta have special panos, structures, or textures, this is where it is at.
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Bobby Bolin |
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| Posted: Saturday, April 16, 2022 at
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I've dabbled in the 2K designer and the Lidar but the one thing I couldn't get past was the fact that I just really didn't care for the game itself. I'm hoping there is something similar in the new EA game and the game is better. I agree about the DEMs not being very precise, but I have found Google Earth to be helpful enough to get around that issue.
Also, my wife says I still act like a pre-teen, so there's that...
Can't wait to see your new course! |
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Hyno Designs |
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| Posted: Monday, April 18, 2022 at
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| edited by: Hyno Designs on
Monday, April 18, 2022 at
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Here is what I did.
Saw those Lidar courses and was amazed what they could do. Me being very basic and can not really do anything with computers, decided to screen capture the TGC holes than trace them in to the CA using Ghost it. (It takes time sizing the zoom to get the yardage somewhat close),
Than one could than get the general elevation from Google earth and from the TGC game.
This par 3 it tells you it is -24 feet downhill and the fairway is at -29 feet.
Once I get the general shapes go in an clean them up and make them detailed than plant the hole. Elevation work is not that hard for me, the course started off 100% flat and than did the terrain hole by hole.
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Hiker Bob |
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| Joined: 11/19/2005 |
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B-Day: 6/8/1962 (61) |
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| Posted: Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at
11:17:18 AM |
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| edited by: Hiker Bob on
Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at
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I read many stories about TGC & 2K21 being too easy to play. Stories of having to shoot -30 to compete in any tournament. I think the TW series can be set to much more realistic play. Plus there is much more variety in the courses with all of our customization.
And Hyno, that hole looks awesome!
I got turned off pretty quickly on 2K21. I saw Cypress Point and tried it out, but was disappointed without hearing the ocean. Then I saw a Pine Valley LiDAR course recommended. I went to play it, and when I got to the 17th, I hit a shot within 6 feet of the pin, only to see it roll 100 foot right off the front of the green. Putt back up, and right back down off the green again. There is nobody monitoring course publishing, and I think there are many unplayable courses in that huge course list. A help for that I think is to only play the TGC Tours approved courses.
This is another way the TW series and Course Downloads shines. We have Pat monitoring the courses and keeping that unplayable sh*t away. Thank you Pat!
Oy, I forgot how hard it was to do all this elevation work. I have laid out the holes, flattened tees, and built reasonable greens. Now I am cleaning up the elevations all around the course since you get these diamond shapes in the overhead when using Terrain Assist. It is going to take quite some time to get this going, but actually enjoying every minute of it, and can not put it down (for now haha). |
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Hiker Bob |
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| Joined: 11/19/2005 |
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B-Day: 6/8/1962 (61) |
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| Posted: Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at
10:46:12 AM |
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I have completed the major elevation work on the Skamania course. It is looking really good with all the holes playable. So much more to do of course. And of course, many tees were now un-flattened, haha.
For the panorama, I have finally settled on one after 18 attempts. There are a lot of downhill holes around the periphery that show lower reaches of the pano, well below what the basic panorama can show. So I figured out how to add another row of images to bring the visible pano way down. Basically for moving your pano up or down, you have to edit the 12SegPan.obj file. I remember doing this way back for tweaking some of the panos of the past. I then found you can add a bunch of duplicate entries for another 12 images, and just modify the vertical dimensions by adding or subtracting the values. So this Skamania pano basically is 1536 pixels high instead of just being limited to 1024 pixels. Not everyone would want to do this, so PM me if you want details.
Here is a sample of the eighth hole, which looks directly at Greenleaf peak, with Table Mountain on the left. No textures or planting yet, as there are so many trees that will come into the picture. But this 8th hole has the fewest trees anyway.
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Gunpower61 |
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B-Day: 4/30/1961 (62) |
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| Posted: Thursday, April 28, 2022 at
10:47:58 AM |
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Hello Hiker Bob, thanks for sharing the pic, looks great.
Its nice to have you back at the designing table. |
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Hiker Bob |
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United States of America |
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| Joined: 11/19/2005 |
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B-Day: 6/8/1962 (61) |
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| Posted: Sunday, May 8, 2022 at
12:33:10 AM |
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Time for an update. I have finally placed all the shapes and I'm getting closer on textures. I'm starting to detail some holes now.
I have also starting playing with the CLS. This course has a lake which is sometimes called LillyPad Lake because the whole darn thing fills with lilies in the summer. However, nothing I do will fill the lake with but a few lilies. Oh well, I will keep at it. I am also trying to get the streams to look better, but not much luck there either.
Posting a picture of the first hole I am working on, the 16th. This one is still part of the new "Gorge Nine" course, but it's now the 7th. They got rid of the sloping in the front of the green, but you can bet I am putting it back. I did test it expert very dry, so still playable. You'll get a sample of what this thing will look like in the pic. A lot to do still!
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Quietly |
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B-Day: 12/12/1800 (223) |
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| Posted: Sunday, May 8, 2022 at
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Messed around with the lillypads and I think I got you what you want. See pic attached and I'll attach the zip file with all required files/code in the next post.
Not sure how you went about trying to change the lilypad density, but it's important to remember something about the cls. If you're working with a default item like lilypads which came with the game, when you call for that item, the system will look for the default settings like it always does. If you want it to use new settings, you have to use new section names. I forgot this for a minute myself while playing with this. The default actor names are 'waterlily1' and 'waterlily2', so I changed them to NEWwaterlily1/NEWwaterlily2.
Plenty dense now. Be careful though, the more dense they are, the greater the chance for lag as the system has to render a ton of these on a larger pond. |
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Quietly |
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| Posted: Sunday, May 8, 2022 at
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The zip file includes a text file with all the code needed for the cls.ini file. Just copy amd paste it all into your cls for your course. Don't forget to remove any lilypad code you had in there beforehand. (backup first for safety)
Also, there's a zip inside the zip that has all the shape/graphic files for lilypads. Just throw those all in the folder with the cls.ini |
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Hiker Bob |
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| Joined: 11/19/2005 |
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B-Day: 6/8/1962 (61) |
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| Posted: Monday, May 9, 2022 at
2:54:52 PM |
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Thanks so much Quietly! So much I forgot. I was even shocked to see that I wrote a tutorial way back. Hopefully no one knows it is there, because it is wrong in places and not very good.
I did succeed on lily pads this weekend doing something similar. I found some old geometry in 06 files, and hooked it up to new source calls. The funny part is I too used a max of 5000, so we must have quantum connection in the multiverse.
I got something going to make the streams a little better, but still probably looks gimmicky to most. Need to move on to reeds and cattails. Canada Geese around the corner as this course has plenty of those. The babies are cute though as I saw plenty on the course. The parents are nasty if you get close.
And also thanks for the 02LC suggestion. I would have plodded on making dark and dull structures. My old Maderas clubhouse looks great, but I only have the 04LC in my backups. Maybe I used that? Will check them both out. |
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Quietly |
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B-Day: 12/12/1800 (223) |
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| Posted: Monday, May 9, 2022 at
4:48:03 PM |
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If you're doing the cattails with the CLS, be sure to use the ones from Atlantica. They are 3-d and although they come in 2 parts making them a little more of a nuisance, they are in my opinion, more realistic. The ones from Sylven Glen work fine but it's pretty clear they are flat images.
Also, my current library for Craig Ranch will include the same 3-d cattail as an object. You can then place them on your plot in the architect and skip the whole CLS mumbo jumbo with plotting all the points for them.
I don't know when that library will be released though. I'm hoping in the next 2-3 weeks. (if you can wait that long) |
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Hiker Bob |
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| Joined: 11/19/2005 |
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B-Day: 6/8/1962 (61) |
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| Posted: Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at
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| Uh oh, set back. I've been using trees from Witch Hollow at Pumpkin Ridge 2007, because they are Northwest USA trees and they just look so right for this course. I started to notice the tree detail disappearing at random, probably because of too many trees. I have a feeling that the same problem will happen even I switch to Winchester 2008 trees (close, but not great). My idea is to only use object trees along the fairway with CLS trees behind. That means a lot of CLS entries. Maybe I can experiment with multiple trees in one CLS image. The good news is plenty of time to wait for the new Quietly library, LOL. And I retire next month giving me time, and you all have so many other courses to play, haha. |
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Hiker Bob |
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| Joined: 11/19/2005 |
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B-Day: 6/8/1962 (61) |
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| Posted: Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at
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I think I am back on track! I found an image of a grove of trees and tweaked the colors. I can then add it using the CLS in the background in just a few places to make the course look like it is full of trees. I only then have to use a few tree objects along the fairway, dense enough for the player to notice only those. So happy. The pic shows a ball in flight up high where everything looks like I want. Can you spot the fake trees? LOL
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Gunpower61 |
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Belgium |
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B-Day: 4/30/1961 (62) |
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| Posted: Friday, May 13, 2022 at
7:02:46 AM |
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| Wooow nice work Hiker Bob and Quietly. |
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Hiker Bob |
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B-Day: 6/8/1962 (61) |
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| Posted: Sunday, May 15, 2022 at
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Good progress being made. I have now completed the back nine, sans cattails and minor details like tees and benches. I still need to work on the Skamania Lodge. It is pretty prominent on hole 9, so tough to ignore it. I have been putting that one off, LOL.
This will be labelled as a fantasy course. First of all, the course does not exist as 18 holes anymore. And second, I am imagining how the course might have been laid out if the architect could have used more of the surrounding land. So I am taking the liberty to modify many holes. The course had a reputation for three things. It was short (6000 yards), people felt the fairways were narrow, and it eats golf balls. The redo adds length, but the other things need to be part of the experience.
The fairways are actually 25 yards wide at least on most holes. The trees just make you feel like it is narrow. And the golf ball eating thing, ya, I think when you play this, you will likely run into many unplayable lies.
My favorite redo is the 10th. It was a short par 4 with a tree preventing you from driving the green. I am turning it into a par 5 to bring in the nearby lake. The lake is privately owned, so only one family gets to enjoy this beauty. The golfing gods say no, we all need to enjoy it, haha. A 480 yard par 5, and you better put away your long clubs and use some strategy. A double dog leg, where you might find a way to get there in two, but not if I have my way, LMAO. This whole course is more of a strategy course anyway.
Here is the approach to the 10th on French Lake, which is full of moss.
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