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axe360 |
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| Posted: Sunday, June 15, 2008 at
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| edited by: axe360 on
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One thing that will kill it for me, for sure, is to many libs, I wont even dl, if it has more than 6or7..
Of course, screenshots are nice to have to..
I really think it is best to decide for yourself, unless a course has been said to be unplayable, or if it has to many libs, why not give it a try?
Just a thought... |
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ronbrug |
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| Posted: Sunday, June 15, 2008 at
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Creating courses is pure fun for me, no matter how many downloads it has.
I prefer to create real courses, because of the challenge.
There are enough players that played the courses the designers have created, and if they poste commnets likeyou nailed it, that does more to me then 2.000 downloads, and saying nice course.Ive seen some fantasy course that are awesome, and could also be a real course.
My personal motivation of creating courses is at a low point at the moment, because theres no tw 09 coming, and wondering how long they leave the server up.
I got a few courses still coming, and they look good so far, so i am hopeing this will keep me motivated. |
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Eaglphan |
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| Posted: Sunday, June 15, 2008 at
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Very relevant thread, and a great topic.
I think for designers, the challenge of taking a plain area of land, having a vision, and then creating said vision is what fantasy designing is all about. Some people tend to like fantasy courses, others dont. In my opinion, its all a matter of personal preference.
I tend to like fictional/real looking golf courses. Thats just my taste. I am currently trying my hand at designing a real course, and have found it to be tougher than I imagined.
The effort that designers take to transfer a REAL course, is in my opinion again, much much more difficult than using ones own vision to design.
As far as the ratings and number of downloads, what Ron said is right on target. There are a select few that test and comment on my courses whos opinion I hold in high regard. It means much more to me, to have someone tell me its a nice looking course, and to also constuctively critique the course, then the number of downloads a course has. |
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TruBluMich |
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| Posted: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 at
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| Guess my question would be WHY HASNT ANYONE BROUGHT THIS UP IN THE NEW SITE CHALLENGE AS AN IDEA hint...hint... |
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| Thank you for visiting CourseDownloads.com |
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jimi |
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| Posted: Friday, June 20, 2008 at
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Doing a real course is more difficult than doing a fanstasy design for exactly the same reason that making an exact copy of a work of art like, say, Van Gogh´s Sunflowers, is more difficult than painting your own sunflowers. That doesn´t mean the copy is always superior because it was based on a work of art that was, maybe, superior to begin with. It may be a lousy copy, that looks more like tulips than like sunflowers for instance. But if you have no idea what actual sunflowers or tulips look like, and you can recognize generic flowers in the painting, you might be tempted to think that is a good copy. That is what i think is goling on with the so-called real courses. Many of them are very convincing copies of the real thing, built by competent designers who have put a lot of time and effort into their work. But on the other hand, many of them really don´t deserve to be called real courses, because they bear only a fleeting, if any, resemblance to the course they were based on. Many of the fiction/fansasy courses look and play much more realistic than a lot of real courses. For the purpose of playing this game I´d prefer a well built and well laid out fictional course to a crappy real course any day. JMHO.
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eagls628 |
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| Posted: Friday, June 20, 2008 at
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| On the other hand, a person could make the arqument that creating a copy of something is easier that creating something from scratch. I would think from a designers viewpoint, the important thing is that the design he ended up with represents what he had in mind to start with, whether it be a real or a fantasy course. |
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ZB |
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| Posted: Friday, June 20, 2008 at
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| edited by: ZB on
Friday, June 20, 2008 at
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Providing a fictional course followed the rudimentary real design principles, ie: bunkers which are not swimming pools and not sunk below the natural level of the fairway/surrounding terrain (due to irragation issues that would arise) greens which are contoured, not with hills on amonst other numerous real architecture traits, I would without question, play those designs, however, apart from a very rare few that have been designed this way (most notably by designers who are also very familiar with the real game of golf) I have not seen any. Therefore, I personally, choose not to play them.
With regard to fantasy type courses...well to be honest, as they are fantasy...there will not really be anything that follows anything related to real design considerations and therefore, I choose not to play them. Simple as.
Jimis argument I think, is too vague. Not wishing to name and shame so to speak...to state that many of the real course designs released Quote: really don´t deserve to be called real courses, because they bear only a fleeting, if any, resemblance to the course they were based on. end Quote needs justification in my own opinion....I mean, which ones do you refer to Jimi? Give us an example of a course that carries the term real and then tell us why you dont think it resembles the actual course. I think this is the only true and honest way to actually to debate this argument. |
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ZB |
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| Posted: Friday, June 20, 2008 at
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| edited by: ZB on
Friday, June 20, 2008 at
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Forgot to add, in response to the theory that it may be easier to copy something thats real versus something that is not....IMHO totally wrong. A fantasy course needs no research, other than perhaps, the talented out there, actually hand drawing an outline/route/plan of the course they are about to lay down in the CA.
A real course will require almost as many hours spent researching, as the number of hours that go into designing it for this game.
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eagls628 |
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| Posted: Friday, June 20, 2008 at
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| edited by: eagls628 on
Friday, June 20, 2008 at
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ZB. If you want to put it that way, then yes it would be easier for a designer to come up with a outstanding fictional course than it would be for him to design an EXACT replica of a real course. Exact is the key word here, down to the exact placement of every tree, bush and whatnot of the original real course.
Oh by the way, you are missing out on some truly amazing well designed and made so called fantasy courses. |
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ZB |
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| Posted: Friday, June 20, 2008 at
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Actually, Im not missing out at all my dear fellow, as I choose not to play fantasy courses anymore because I prefer courses that follow real design thoughts as already mentioned on more than one occassion. I have in fact downloaded many of the fantasy courses in the past but, my PERSONAL choice now, is not to play them for the reasons stated. I do not think myself as missing out, as you put it.
Perhaps you would like to share your thoughts as to what makes a truly amazing fantasy course and provide some examples? I will always find time to try them out, however, my PREFERENCE will not change, whatever you suggest. |
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eagls628 |
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| Posted: Friday, June 20, 2008 at
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To answer your question, I will say that to me a truly amazing fantasy course would be one that could actually be designed as a very good real course. As far as preference goes, I think most peoples would probably be a excellently made real course even if the person has no idea of what that course actually does look like.
IMO there have been many well made fantasy courses that could be built as real courses. As to not pick and choose any one certain course, I will just go with the most resent fantasy (hate that word)lol course that I have downloaded, being Lords Valley Country Club. IMO this course could be a real shot makers course anywhere.
Maybe you could do me a favor by enlighting me with a list of reasons why this course could never be a real course. |
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ZB |
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| Posted: Friday, June 20, 2008 at
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I will however I will send it in a pm to you so as not to inadvertantly cause any offence to the designer.
Interestingly enough there is a real course by this name and it is also situated in the same part of the USA, however the terrain is nothing like that used in this course.
I will send you my response in the next few days because what you are effectively asking me to do, is a test and report, which will take more time than I have right now.
I will however, base my findings on my own current experience of playing golf, together with my current knowledge of real course architecture principles...a subject I am currently studying to qualification status, so that you get an honest and informed viewpoint. |
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ronbrug |
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| Posted: Friday, June 20, 2008 at
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I am really get the feeling this is a cant win topic, so i give me honest opion.
Poeple can create perfect surrounding areas, and that takes alot off time.
But they forget too put that back i the fairway, i am not talking about real or fictional courses.
When u have alot off elevations around the fairways, the fairway are not flat.
That are things i see alot on fictional courses,i understand its a fantasy course,
but when they say this course can be real , then i say, hell no.
Even fictional courses take alot off work, i know a few that make bleuprints off it, and then start up the Course Architect.
So to be honest,4 course a month cant be good in my opion, real or not real. |
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axe360 |
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| Posted: Friday, June 20, 2008 at
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Here is a thought, maybe we should just give the people what they want...
Oh, wait a minute, that is what we do..
So what if you dont get as many downloads as someone else, why does it have to be, because ones real and ones not..
Enough already, if you dont like the number of downloads you are getting for your courses, then make em better.
Thats my only alternative, so lets get on with it..
Jimi, you make very good courses, but can this question ever be answered?
PEACE
This is supposed to be fun, remember.... |
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Homeboy |
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| Posted: Friday, June 20, 2008 at
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Well said, Larry. When you think about it, every real course was just a figment of the real-life course architects imagination walking the plot for weeks finding the holes based on the natural terrain. Sure, the real courses will get lots of attention, especially if theyre played on tour. But I also find that some of my favorite courses are the fictional ones that could be a real course like Barrys Koko Head course. Thats a real TA plot from Hawaii and he found the holes in the terrain just like a real-life course architect would.
I dont tend to keep too many courses on my hard-drive, but I would say that the split between real and fictional is about 50/50. The common element is a thoughtful layout and smooth design that feels like youre playing real golf.
Theres always room for the fantasy course too one of my all-time favorites was The Predator, trying to find the shortcuts through the trees and what-not. No, its not real golf, but it sure was fun. (I even toyed around the idea of trying to design my own version of the Predator). Eppies Target Springs is another one a course you wont find in real life but a ton of fun.
In the end, I guess Im not sure what the debate is here. People should just download and enjoy whatever they like. |
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ZB |
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| Posted: Friday, June 20, 2008 at
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Actually, I think both axe and Homeboy have hit the nail on the head so to speak.
Hell, people should download what they want and designers should not be concerned whether their designs get 100 or 1000 downloads! Not sure why the debate started ie: the root cause, maybe its because Jimi may not be seeing quite as many download his fantasy courses as he got, before designing real courses at PGAX? I dont know.
I think this thread has in fact, formed two debates here. One is easy to answer...its a peoples choice matter. I personally choose not to play fantasy courses because I prefer to play real tracks and as I am not a gamer so to speak, I will only ever want to use this game to play real tracks.
The other debate is potentially huge in regard to the differences between a fictional and real course. Agreeing with Ronbrug, a course has to naturally compliment its surroundings and not have the look of being totally out of place. ie: the terrain must look as though it was there before the golf course. Tee boxes need to be raised in order to offer a view of the fairway, bunkers need to follow simple irrigation rules, greens dont have hills, they have contours, trees are not left directly in front of tee shots, tee boxes arent at the top of small mountains, there must be an easy to identify, realistic walkway/routing of how a golfer might actually get to and from each location, bunkers that are not vertically placed on the sides of hills (as the sand has only one place to go folks!) grass textures that actually blend together and look as though the only difference is the height of cut, rolling fairways not ones with hills in the middle (again, an irrigation principle) and the list goes on and on....
Diferent people have diferent views on whether they think a fictional course could be a real one. I tend to see most fictional courses as just that, fictional. But that is my choice....you all have a right to your own thoughts and choices and that is why we enjoy living in a free world.
pay your money, take your choice.
As Axe always says, Peace! |
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brucemcisaac |
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| Posted: Saturday, June 21, 2008 at
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Since the topic is real vs fantasy... then Ill go on the assumption fantasy is referring to something other than a fictional design.
I would guess many who play the Tiger Woods Golf Sim series also golf regularly on their local links. Im one of those and also one who plays the sim as closely as it would allow to get the real feel of golf on a PC. Thus the aim arrow is removed along with other helpers, I use the horizonatal True swing with a lazer mouse and all custom clubs and shafts (these also decrease accuracy/ add more misshits).. the balls used and many other options can quickly turn a -15 handicaper into a sim golfer that shoots in the high 70s to mid 80s. I only play expert mode and very dry(PGA Speeds) and generally only real designs. I do and will play fictional courses where the designer took the time to use real course design/land management techniques and created a course that, tho fictional, could very well be a real course. Fantasy designs in my opinion are based mainly on imagination, generally are a lot more severe and use little or no research
I certainly dont expect the hard-core-gamer to play TW08, as I do, nor would I care... its up to the individual. I would also expect someone that prefers intermediate /novice mode to enjoy different courses than I would.
Sites like this provide a good variety of designs for all tastes.... if the course gets one download and the member that grabbed it enjoys the course then the service proves its worth. We can all ponder what makes a real design .. to me unless it plays like the real course from tee to green ...having every tree dead on the same location means nothing. Once again the variety... to some its just a game they occasionally play ... to others it has to sim the real game...and then the group somewhere in the middle.
In my view the hardest course to design is a real(non-sim) golf course, you have to have get the permits 1st -then you need experts in land conservation and management, engineers and draftsmen draw up the blueprints,horticultural/agricultural/... and meet local government/township regulations ..and then all the equipment/ operators/labor......trees, grasses, fill..
.. I think we have it pretty easy but believe it doesnt hurt to consider who did the real design and learn a little about their work if doing a real design.
........ with the wizard and OK CA skills I believe anyone can turn out a fantasy design fairly quickly so Im sure there will always be good variety and plenty of courses for all tastes.. |
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eagls628 |
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| Posted: Saturday, June 21, 2008 at
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| edited by: eagls628 on
Saturday, June 21, 2008 at
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"
With regard to fantasy type courses...well to be honest, as they are fantasy...there will not really be anything that follows anything related to real design considerations and therefore, I choose not to play them. Simple as.
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The reason that I disagreed with you is mainly because of your statement above. There are presently only two types of courses for download, that being real and fantasy. I was contending that a fantasy course could be designed in such a way that it could be built in real life as a real course and I still contend that and have no reason to believe that many of the fantasy courses could not indeed be built as a real course. It now sounds to me that you would agree with that. So really we have no disagreement whatsoever. |
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