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TruBluMich |
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| Posted: Sunday, February 15, 2009 at
7:57:45 AM |
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Ok just because theres another thread where I couldnt stop laughing. I want to know what makes a PERFECT design. You know the little things that annoy people about some designs. However keep in mind that course design is great because it is something someone can do that uses thier imagination.
Ill start....
I hate it when people make island greens with no bridge or a boat to get to the green. Unless Jimi made it then I excpect to see a teleport from Star Trek. |
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fedexfrt357 |
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| Posted: Sunday, February 15, 2009 at
8:22:36 AM |
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...When the fairways or 'designated landing area' is so sloped, that you cant land a ball on it without rolling off into the rough...
...A green that is the same, where... unless you get within an inch or two of the hole...you cant keep in on... |
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...If it aint broke....fix it til it is...
Working: Castle Hills Golf Club (Real....istic) |
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axe360 |
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| Posted: Sunday, February 15, 2009 at
9:11:10 AM |
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I don't like those raised edges between fairways and roughs or greens and fringes. Mind you, I know I have missed a few on my courses, but I really try to find them all.
And flat water is a must!!!!! |
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nuttywoody |
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| Posted: Sunday, February 15, 2009 at
9:43:54 AM |
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| I'm no expert, but I played a course a while back where nearly every single hole played significantly downhill. It seemed unatural to me. Call this "lack of variety in terrain use" or something. |
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nuttywoody |
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| Posted: Sunday, February 15, 2009 at
7:48:19 PM |
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| From a topic a while back: Blind tee shots |
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fedexfrt357 |
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| Posted: Monday, February 16, 2009 at
7:55:49 AM |
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| edited by: fedexfrt357 on
Monday, February 16, 2009 at
7:57:00 AM
afterthought |
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Those dont bother me......
A few local courses have them, and its just like the E key..just drive the cart up there and look....
:)
edit** Not too extreme mind you..** |
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fedexfrt357 Signature |
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...If it aint broke....fix it til it is...
Working: Castle Hills Golf Club (Real....istic) |
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nuttywoody |
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| Posted: Monday, February 16, 2009 at
9:29:58 AM |
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| How about the ever-popular "improbable, impassable, unavigable cart path:? |
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jimi |
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| Posted: Monday, February 16, 2009 at
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| edited by: jimi on
Monday, February 16, 2009 at
4:25:00 PM
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Water that isnt flat or placed correctly relative to its surroundings - Ive played courses where you had a gentle slope leading UP to the water level;; trees and bushes of uniform height;; bunkers that have no definition and just sit there like a pizza on a plate;; creases and awkward straight lines in textures due to undersmoothing/overoptimizing. What I also dont like to see is which elevation tool has been used to create a certain effect. You get these symmetrical humps that look great on a lady, but not so much on a golf course.
(;Do I have to apologize again for that last remark? :)) |
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Hyno Designs |
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| Posted: Monday, February 16, 2009 at
1:34:07 PM |
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| edited by: Hyno Designs on
Monday, February 16, 2009 at
3:39:00 PM
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To get a course perfect in every detail may not be possible. However one can get the basics correct. When you play a really good course aka a Homeboy course, were everything seems to flow, and very rare you cant pick up flaws. I am not talking about accuracy, just little things in the design. Personally I have not done many courses in 07 or 08, because for me it is very difficult to design with the level of the detail that is found in the game. It takes to much time to be honest. If you look at courses like Coeur d`Alene, and really look at it. Some of the work that was done with the water was really impressive. For me personally, if I dont have to go back in to the course and make edits than it is usually complete. That usually happens months after I release a course. However, I have not completed that many courses in this game, because their is also something to fix or add. I have learned from all my mistakes that I made early in my career.
Here is my top 10 list !!
1) Make sure the tee boxes and water are flat
2) Make sure the tee markers are lined up correct in the center of the player, next make sure you dont have floating structures any were on the course. (;Placing leaderboard and cameras in good places to make it look somewhat real.)
3) Work with the galleries if added and try to make them work in the best possible manor.
4) Shaping is a major key to building a good course. Green shapes, to the bunker shapes, all the way to the movemement of the fairway. This is the backbone to any course.
5) Cart paths can make or break your design, these need to flow in a good manor, and when they split you need to try to get them as close to each other as possible so you cant see the gaps between them.
5) Planting is not very difficult, however it is very important in the course designing world. If a real course has specific tree in an area, try to plant that tree. You also need to be able to build up certain areas to make it look somewhat real in a video game. Sometimes it is adding an extra hole, sometimes it is creating a view by your planting. Please dont use the forest tool, and hand plant each an every tree and bush. Next play the course, and look if anything seems out of place or not natural.
6) If you see creases or spikes, you try to remove them, however this is something that could be missed from time to time.
7) The greens !!! It is important to get them flowing in somewhat of a logical manor, it is key to pick up on features of real greens and try to put that in to a video game. It is also important to have the greens putt good and true. If you have a course with sloped greens, you need to be able to create angles and different effects from the breaks in the greens.
a) Lets take a very complex green #9 at Augusta
1) The breaks are as follows, their is a false front on this green, the green is raised above the hill, their is a insane slope in the green shifting to the right when looking from the front. The two bunker to the left of the green are raised. Putting to a front pin, you can have almost a circle putt. Now to create that in a video game is very difficult. The back part of that green still has a little slope to the right but nothing as crazy as what you have in the middle or front of that green. If you go over this green, the chip shot should almost run past the pin, making it very difficult to stop. A shot to the right of this green, should have lots of break in the chip, making the up and down very difficult. If you land the ball just on the front of the green, it should re-pell backwards running back down the hill. Also if you are putting back down to a front pin, if you strike the putt to hard, it should go off the green and down the hill. This what makes designing a perfect course almost impossible. To build a green to react in the manor in which I said above takes lots of edits and changes, and you will never get it 100% correct. Also the person who is building this course, needs to have that info, cause if they dont they will never get anything even close.
8) If you look at the stock courses in this game, the areas around the greens are kind of flattish, you cant always have built up green complexes however they tend to have a better look and improve the game play if you can present them in a 3D manor. (;Ie the picture below)
9) The look of the bunker is subjective to the eye, so each designer is going to be different, however if you dont get the bunker how you want, re-do it until you do. Really bad bunkers can wreak any course.
10) Finally check everything over on your course, go back and play, than think of ways to improve what you have just played. Again in my view shaping is the backbone and key to every course, sometimes you need to think way outside the box to get it to work.
These are just my views on how to make a course better..... |
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jmeier |
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| Posted: Monday, February 16, 2009 at
4:21:17 PM |
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I design and play recreations of real courses. My personal preference. I do not want to detract anything away from the artistic skill or vision of the people that make their own designs for the game. With that being said:
For real recreations My key points are:
1. Accuracy of the layout
2. Realistic representation of the terrain - ie not having slopes that are too severe or unable to be mown on a real course. Terrain features that carry through large areas of the plot - not just elevating certain areas of a hole to get it too look correct, etc.
3. Staying true to the best of the designers ability and information at hand. Not adding things like plants that aren't there to increase difficulty in the game, adding more elevations that that are really there to change the playability of the course etc.
4. For me, realistic playability is far more important than some visual qualities. For example, I would prefer a course that has a very realistic green complex from a playability standpoint and to have water that is not perfectly flat. An improper created green complex will affect the play of the course where as non flat water is just that non flat. You hit your ball in the water, it is shot over, that is the way it is. Flat or non flat water has no effect on the outcome of the round. I agree it is something than can usually be avoided. But certain times to the contrary cannot be avoided due to limitations of the game. If you have a stream that flows through the terrain that changes elevation, it is not poosible to have flat water while keeping the surround terrain at the correct height. In nature when water flows down hill it will sometimes create flat surfaces but other times it cannot due to severe elevation change and thus rapids or waterfalls are created. It is very hard, if not next to impossible to duplicate this in this video game so sometimes we are left to having water that is sloped to match the terrain. I do not see a problem with this.
5. Flat tee boxes are a must. Especially for expert players where the lie effect is so significant. I do not care if the entire shape that has the tee texture to it is flat as real golf course tee boxes are rarely ever flat except in tournament conditions where they are generally rolled flat. But the tee area for the game needs to be flat.
6. Proper execution of the overheads so that the entire hole is displayed
7. As close as possible to selecting the appropriate types of plants. I know we are limited to the plants in hand with that EA has provided us. Usually a good representation can be had. A few years back, there was a recreation of a tour stop in Canada that had palm trees on it. Now I personally have never seen a palm tree survive i Canadian winter. Hand in hand with the plant selection goes the pano selection. Again we are limited to what library creators have put together, except for those of us that can create our own or have someone create on for us. It may not be possible to get a perfect replica pano, but something can be chosen that represents the type of things one could expect to see in that area. I have seen courses in the Midwest US and other non mountainous areas use a very large mountain pano.
I am sure there are others but these are my major points that I look at for a real course recreation. |
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| Tour Manager and Design Manager of the CGX Tour, the best place online for PGA Style tournament play on custom courses. Often imitated, never duplicated. |
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Hyno Designs |
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| Posted: Monday, February 16, 2009 at
6:04:17 PM |
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| edited by: Hyno Designs on
Monday, February 16, 2009 at
6:53:00 PM
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Is most cases it is a lot easier to work around flat water. However in some cases were the holes goes up hill or downhill and it has a stream next to it, it is not possible to have flat water. If you did, u would create a massive ditch. This is something that the designer has to work around in order to get it to flow and look natural.
However if you were creating #17 at Sawgrass, even if the water area is not flat in real life, to make it work in a video game it would be a lot easier to build being flat. Cause not only do you have the railroad ties around the 17th green you also have the railroad ties on #16.
As far as real course goes, I really dont have much to say, you are like an artist trying to create a picture. However this picture is usually over 7,000 yards long, and each and every shot is a new 360 degree panoramic view. You have to deal with matching up the shapes of the real design, you have to than copy the planting the best you can. You need to try to figure out the breaks in the greens. Get a good idea of the elevations shifts in the course. Create a method to build bunkers that somewhat matches the real design. Than, it is has to look like the real course. You want to fool or trick any person who has played that course in real life to thinking and feeling they are actually playing that course. Is this possible, I dont know.....
The people who make the game cant do perfect courses?
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Munroco |
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| Posted: Monday, February 16, 2009 at
7:05:41 PM |
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| edited by: Munroco on
Monday, February 16, 2009 at
7:08:00 PM
Hyno Designs edited his post as I was replying, so the St Andrews bit now looks out of context. I wasnt just bragging, honest. :) |
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Ive played St Andrews and I thought apart from a couple of holes the EA version was pretty decent. Saying that, I wasnt looking for specific differences, I only had a close look at a few of the bunkers, I spent more time in the gorse bushes. St Andrews isnt a good course for someone who is prone to slicing. Overall I thought it was a reasonably accurate experience. Making a real course must be incredibly difficult, I wouldnt have a clue where to start, but maybe one day Ill have a go at Carnoustie, I should be able to create all the really nasty places you can get to as Ive been in most of them all too many times.
Anyway my pet hate is holes that are tricked up to make them more difficult. Be it water, bunkers, trees in the most unlikely places places rather than blending in with the terrain, and crazy sloping greens.
Neil |
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| From Carnoustie, the REAL home of golf. |
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Hyno Designs |
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| Posted: Monday, February 16, 2009 at
9:08:34 PM |
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Neil,
If you are right handed, your cut/slice should work perfect at St. Andrews, you just aim to the other fairway and let the ball drift back towards your fairway. If you have cross bunkers in the middle, take a club to get over them or lay up behind them. If you ball flies straight you are in the other fairway which usually gives you a better angle at the flag. Even on something like #9, aim your drive down the left side.... |
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Munroco |
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Scotland |
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| Posted: Monday, February 16, 2009 at
9:38:49 PM |
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If only I sliced it all the time, but yeah your right, keeping to the inside on the way out is a good plan. It was years ago I played there, and I always assumed that the straight drive was my natural shot and my slice was an occasional abberation. Instead the opposite was true. I remember thinking that there wasn't really much to St Andrews. At the time I lived in Dundee and played on a parkland course called Camperdown. I thought St Andrews looked very bare and featureless in comparison, but it's the subtleties of the course that make it what it is.
Neil |
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| From Carnoustie, the REAL home of golf. |
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axe360 |
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| Posted: Monday, February 16, 2009 at
10:21:00 PM |
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| edited by: axe360 on
Monday, February 16, 2009 at
10:22:00 PM
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jimi, are you planning to make an X-Rated course? With all this talk about courses looking like women, Im thinking thats what your setting us up for. lol
Oh, and no trees on the cart paths. This is why I love to design, there is so much to learn, I have only barely scratched the surface. |
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Boze |
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| Posted: Monday, February 16, 2009 at
10:34:22 PM |
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| Plantation inside of a teebox has to be the WORST....... ; ) |
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YendorKcilua |
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| Posted: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 at
1:51:24 PM |
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TruBluMich,
Please contact me for donation.
Yendor Kciluap |
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