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Bobby Bolin |
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| Posted: Monday, February 2, 2009 at
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This is purely speculation, but I believe it is still very important.
It seems that recently there have been a few people rating courses very low and leaving absolutely no comment to give a reason for rating the course low. This has happened to two of my courses, but that is not what gets to me. I was recently looking at the comments for a course just released by Homeboy and Smiling Goats, two of the leading course designers. The course had 1 rating and 5 stars when I began looking. There were two comments, both of a positive nature. Within 30 seconds, the course had 3 ratings and an overall of 2.5 stars. This means within 30 seconds, there were 2 votes of 1 cast for this course, and there have not been any commments since. I believe you are doing an injustice to two of the most well-respected people here by rating a course low out of jealousy, anger, or revenge on comments given to your course.
I am not usually one to get up and comment like this, but I believe this problem should be looked at. I think that I am beginning to agree more and more with Jimi. The ratings should only be available if there is a comment along with them, or at least we know who is rating the course. |
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axe360 |
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| Posted: Monday, February 2, 2009 at
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| edited by: axe360 on
Monday, February 2, 2009 at
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I think I brought that up to, but I agree that it would open up a big can of worms, if people that left a rating, had to make a comment.
But I do certainly see what you mean Bobby.
I think Trublu put it very well.
Quote from TruBluMich.
I cant prevent architects from rating their own courses. I can stop their user id from rating a course I can stop their IP from rating but that doesnt stop them from registering a new account under a new IP address. AND yes some do go to those extents to give a 5 star rating.
Adding comments:
Been brought up a few times and each time I strike that one dead, The staff knows who rated a course and what they rated it, if the designers knew, NOT ALL bust some would send a message to a member who gave their course a one with a lot of nasty words. Old timers around here will know this quote Well how many courses have you designed.... Now imagine a designer who really thought a course was worth a one, because their design standards are higher than the architect who designed the course, course might be a 5 to someone else. The architect sees this architect gave his course a one and goes and rates all of their courses a one as well. Then after that it gets better they start arguing about it in the forum. Then to top it all off they say Im done and both architects quit designing courses because their egos are smashed.
Rating creative works is hard, if anyone has ever been to a art gallery, you know what I mean. Ive seen paintings I thought were the ugliest thing on planet earth sell for 10s of thousands of dollars, and then others I thought were magnificent get sold for 10 bux. Just like this site their are courses I think are awesome with low ratings and others I think could have had some more time spent on them have high ratings. SO I do what everyone should do I rate the courses how I see them. End Quote.
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fedexfrt357 |
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| Posted: Tuesday, February 3, 2009 at
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Big can of worms is RIGHT...
I agree with you guys on this one...personal opinion of the designer should have NO PART in the rating...
(that's what this seems to be)
But... How about a rating system with different areas to rate..?
(Appearance, Difficulty, Playability, Detail, Effort, etc...) with a mandatory comments section for each.
follow me here? Using multiple factors to get the course rating.
Or possibly a 'designers' rating system...(rated ONLY by other designers, with mandatory comments)...??
If someone had to put a little effort into it by commenting on their choices, one might not be so quick to judge harshly, or without even playing it first..
If a course was rated without comments, or by the designer, it would not be accepted. I understand that this might be fairly complicated, but on the same hand, don't the designers deserve an HONEST evaluation of their work? Agreed, this should come from players, not the moderators, but ???.......can of worms....
Just started my first course, and believe me... I have a new found respect for ALL designers. :)
The long, tedious process and attention to detail, trial and error, deserves a certain amount of respect, regardless of personal opinion of the actual designer...(who, would probably help you if you asked).
Anyone who plays these courses should 'take their hat off' to these guys for what they do..(what would you be doing now without them, playing stock courses I guess... or moved on to....WOW??) lmao
If any of these 'slam' ratings are coming from other designers, then I hope you will think about what you have learned from the others..(you know you have...)
If they come from players who just can't see the effort put into these... or mad because they got beat on a course...why bother?
Over 500 courses and 600,000 downloads, this site alone....please...
----RATE HONESTLY OR DON'T RATE AT ALL-----
Anyway, just a thought... :)
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fedexfrt357 Signature |
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...If it aint broke....fix it til it is...
Working: Castle Hills Golf Club (Real....istic) |
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axe360 |
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| Posted: Tuesday, February 3, 2009 at
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| Hey, I just had a gr8 idea, I know what I'm going to do, Turn My Ratings Off. lol |
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BladeRunnerZ |
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| Posted: Tuesday, February 3, 2009 at
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| For what it's worth how about a little counter next to the rating indicator showing how many people have rated the course? |
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BladeRunnerZ Signature |
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Golf can best be defined as an endless series of tragedies obscured by the occasional miracle
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Bobby Bolin |
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| Posted: Tuesday, February 3, 2009 at
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| If you hold your mouse over the rating it should tell you the total votes. |
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BladeRunnerZ |
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| Posted: Tuesday, February 3, 2009 at
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| Fancy that. Thanx Bobby, how long have i been browsing this site now,(lmao). |
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Golf can best be defined as an endless series of tragedies obscured by the occasional miracle
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Hyno Designs |
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| Joined: 10/24/2004 |
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| Posted: Tuesday, February 3, 2009 at
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| edited by: Hyno Designs on
Tuesday, February 3, 2009 at
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I saw that course up yesterday I actually thought it was a JIMI course, cause the designer name was goat boy, you know the old SNL skit.
This is not as bad as ebay, you have to have 4.1 avg in all your categories every 30 days rolling, if not you get banned from listing anything. That is not really fair, plus the seller can no longer leave negative feedback, double whammy...Guess what I dont use ebay....
We have had these fights for years. Designers cant leave bad comments, even if they have merit. They can rate the courses, I guess that is fair. At the same time positive comments on everything doesnt set any kind of standards.
I have the ratings turned off.
The number of comments or downloads dont tell you that much either. I would like to see designers upload 5 to 20 pictures of the course, that is the best way to judge weather to download or not.
I would like to see the comments used more for, Talk to the Designer time, like a chat box about the course.
This stuff used to really bother me. Some of the stuff that was wriiten about some of the courses, would drive me nuts, I couldnt figure out the crack that people were smoking. Now I just think it is funny, but than again I was banned from every Tiger Woods site.
I am out of this game, it only got me in trouble. That is why it is fun reading this post.
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Munroco |
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| Posted: Tuesday, February 3, 2009 at
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Make it compulsory to leave a comment if you are giving a course a bad score, saying why. Definitely for a 1, maybe for a 2 also?
Cheers
Neil |
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| From Carnoustie, the REAL home of golf. |
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ZB |
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| Posted: Wednesday, February 4, 2009 at
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I dont think the rating low = compulsory comments equation, is the answer, as it just leads to either a backlash of written abuse from the designer or from their "mates"...we have seen a spate of this recently.
I think that when rating courses, the most important thing to remember is to remind yourself what it is you are measuring against. Are you rating a course based on whether it plays better than the last course you downloaded, or whether you are measuring against the last course this particular designer released.
To rate anything, you need a benchmark. Deciding upon the subject you have as your benchmark is key (whilst also being difficult to decide upon) to a successful rating system. No benchmark = an inability to measure against and hence rate.
Personally, I have a couple of course types in my mind when I rate courses, depending on the subject, ie: whether I am rating a fantasy or a real creation. Fantasy courses in my mind are difficult to rate, however the benchmark I usually use is any creation by Jimi or Axe or when Eppiedad used to design, I would use his courses as a benchmark. I also play all my games in very dry so playability is a massive influence on scoring a course for me. If a new fantasy design fails to have the look and feel of a thought out and planned routing, fails to have had at least a thought process when it comes to planting and fails to use textures which at least match each other, then these courses will usually get a 1 if anything from me. However, all the time whilst I am playing/testing the new creation, I will be comparing in my head against those fantasy courses that I do on occassion play.
For real courses that I have good knowledge of, I use the rating system we have at PGAX to decide whether a course measures up to my personal expectations, with the very dry playability being the most important consideration.
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Munroco |
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| Posted: Thursday, February 5, 2009 at
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Just had a shufti at my latest course, 224 downloads, no one has bothered to make a comment or a mark.
Lets just suppose that they all quite liked it, no one thought it was fantastic or crap so didn't feel strongly enough to mark it or comment. Along comes Joe Soap and either loves or hates it, I would end up with an average of 5 (go Joe :)) or 1.
Neil |
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Munroco Signature |
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| From Carnoustie, the REAL home of golf. |
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nuttywoody |
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| Posted: Thursday, February 5, 2009 at
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Somewhat on the lines of fed's ideas above:
I would like make a suggestion to more effectively rate courses. By effectively, I mean to say that those shopping for courses might be served by a system that is predictable and fosters a certain respect and trust of the ratings by way of a trusted source.
My proposal would be to have a system that would employ a dedicated, sanctioned evaluation team. The team would be sworn to objectivity and fairness, and promise not to accept bribes of EA tokens. Certainly there are more than a few folks who download and play virtually everything that comes out. No strict timetable would need to be enforced, and if the team evaluated a course over a period of time, the evaluation results could be tabulated. Perhaps a control panel area could be set up where up to a dozen team members could rate various aspects of the course with a few mouse clicks (load time, playability, aesthetics, realism, fun, difficulty) and an algorithm could spit out a number.
Course Evaluation Team members would gain satisfaction and the respect of their peers. Designers would benefit from having constructive feedback and focus based on standard evaluation criteria. Perhaps ratings by the team could be anonymous as far as identifying the indidiual members who participate in ratings for a given course, elimnating backlash.
The CET could meet on-line to play a course together or evaluate by way of a mini-tournament.
I think this might work and could even be fun.
And no, I am not qualified nor do I desire to be part of the team :-P
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TruBluMich |
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| Posted: Thursday, February 5, 2009 at
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Ratings on anything are all completely political. What I mean by that is everyone has an opinion.
Honestly I think the most votes a course has is 30 or 40, that is not enough to even begin to worry about them. When less than 1 % of everyone who downloads your course votes, it does not give a fair representation of how the majority feels about a course.
Now as to why I haven't put any more thought into making them better. Less than 1% of all downloaders rate a course after downloading. So looking at that, is there a reason I should devote a day to improving the rating system.
WAIT, I saw a pretty neat rating system the other day, that I may implement into the new site. Its set up more as a review then a star rating system. |
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| Thank you for visiting CourseDownloads.com |
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jimi |
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| Posted: Thursday, February 5, 2009 at
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| This reminds of how things were done at the Copyright Club, probably the best cyber golf site ever (present company excluded for reasons of politeness, lol.) I have to admit that my courses used to be lambasted by the review team, which was based somewaht on the American Idol format, if I remember correctly. All in good fun, but with a serious undertone. One problem was that there were so many courses being produced that they basically couldn't keep up. That could be a problem here as well, I believe. It is an excellent idea tho. If I could play the game at all, I might even volunteer :) |
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axe360 |
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| Posted: Thursday, February 5, 2009 at
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That's one thing I love about this site, the willingness for the staff to listen to us and try to make improvements when possible. Be looking forward to it TruBluMich.
Peace |
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Munroco |
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| Posted: Friday, February 6, 2009 at
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Well it happened. Joe Bloggs (go Joe) gave me 5 marks yesterday, honest it wasn't me, so I was sitting there with average of 5 from 250+ downloads. Came on this morning and from 262 downloads average is 3. Therefore I have 2 people marking my course Joe Bloggs (go Joe) gives me 5, some one else gives me a 1. All I can think is while Joe may have been a bit enthusiastic with a 5, the person who gave me 1 did so out of malice. I spent 8 weeks doing that course and while it's probably not a 5 there is no way it is worth 1 mark. (btw none of the people who marked it left comments). Can the staff tell who marks courses?
Cheers
Neil |
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| From Carnoustie, the REAL home of golf. |
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jimi |
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Netherlands |
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| Posted: Friday, February 6, 2009 at
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"All I can think is while Joe may have been a bit enthusiastic with a 5, the person who gave me 1 did so out of malice. "
Not necessarily. The person may have thought the 5 was a bit overrated and figured if he gave you a 1 that may end up closer to the rating he really wanted to give the course, if you know what I mean. Not saying it was me, just to point out that people may apply different criteria to their ratings, as Zee mentioned before. |
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Munroco |
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| Posted: Friday, February 6, 2009 at
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Don't agree Jimi, if someone thinks a course is worth 1, then by all means give it 1, but to mark it down regardless of their opinion of the course, thats just downright mean. I'm beginning to understand why people don't allow their courses to be rated.
Neil |
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| From Carnoustie, the REAL home of golf. |
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BladeRunnerZ |
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South Africa |
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| Posted: Friday, February 6, 2009 at
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In the long term the ratings would become meaningless as all courses would drift between 2.5 and 3.5 as the law of large numbers kicks in, that is if everyone who downloaded cast a vote.
Take for instance my Sherwood CC, which currently stands at 4.5 with 1954 downloads, 10000
views and 19 votes.
If all those that had downloaded had voted as well the rating in all probability would have dropped and no doubt that if 10000 had voted one can be almost certain that it would hit the 3 mark.
I don't pay much attenion to the ratings, i rather rely on the meaningful words of a select few.
Just as you have bad films and bad critics, you also have good films and good critics...
Choose your critics well my friends, jeez it's late and i'm talking a lot of bul#%%#$@ |
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BladeRunnerZ Signature |
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Golf can best be defined as an endless series of tragedies obscured by the occasional miracle
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Homeboy |
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| Posted: Friday, February 6, 2009 at
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| Nah, Rowan, Sherwood is rated 4.5 because it is an excellent design -- probably my favorite real course design of 08. |
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