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tspenik |
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| Posted: Thursday, September 4, 2008 at
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I posted this in the General forum also. Sorry, but It is a problem that shouldn't exist.
I have been irked (being polite) by this problem for far too long. The problem is explained by the following copy of a comment that I made about a course:
"I did not have that problem, but I did encounter issues with the putting. On one of the back nine greens I had a 20 yard putt and and could only move the putter about two feet on the backswing; I could not get a full swing for a long putt! I swung as hard as I could and barely got to near the hole. I should have been able to go even 15 feet past the hole on a crappy putt. On the 17th hole I had a 15 or 20 foot slightly downhill putt, and the backswing was restricted, and the putt was slow and barely landed a few inches from the hole. I took a mulligan and made the putting stroke as hard as I could; same result. I have experienced the same type of swing restriction on courses from other designers also. Most courses allow a normal full swing on long putts, or any shot. I am puzzled by this. Is it a bug in the design, accidental or intentional, or is it some kind of a problem with the game itself, under certain conditions? I just don't want to keep such a course on the hard drive. I am interested in knowing whether others have experienced this on various courses." |
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Bobby Bolin |
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| Posted: Thursday, September 4, 2008 at
8:44:38 PM |
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| It is not the course... it has something to do with the game. I am assuming you are playing on novice? |
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tspenik |
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| Posted: Thursday, September 4, 2008 at
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| I am playing on novice, but I have this problem with the restricted putting on only a few courses. Most courses are normal. If it is the game, one would think that all courses would be affected. |
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Bobby Bolin |
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| Posted: Friday, September 5, 2008 at
11:46:28 AM |
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| Which courses are you having the problem on? |
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tspenik |
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| Posted: Friday, September 5, 2008 at
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| I really can't remember, except for Shinnecock Hills 2008, which was posted on Sept. 4th, since I don't usually keep them. Until now, I do have 147 custom '08 courses that I really like and keep on the hard drive. I am sure that there will be more. You designers do wonderful work. I was just wondering if anyone else has had that experience, and what might cause it. Perhaps it is something that could be uncovered in course testing, or maybe it just happens on certain spots on some holes. The reason that I used the word "intentionally" is because I am certain that rarely some uncool designer thinks that it is cool to have the ball abruptly angle off just before it reaches the hole. I have experienced that on rare occasions, on some not very good courses. I was just hoping that the restricted putter was not the same thing. I really do appreciate your interest. I can't think of any other information that might be helpful. I am not fabricating something; these things have really happened. Thank you for helping. |
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eagls628 |
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| Posted: Friday, September 5, 2008 at
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| ". The reason that I used the word "intentionally" is because I am certain that rarely some uncool designer thinks that it is cool to have the ball abruptly angle off just before it reaches the hole. I have experienced that on rare occasions, on some not very good courses. I was just hoping that the restricted putter was not the same thing. I really do appreciate your interest. I can't think of any other information that might be helpful. I am not fabricating something; these things have really happened. Thank you for helping." |
I seriously doubt that a designer can somehow make a hole where the ball when putted would angle away from the hole for no reason. I have downloaded and played hundreds of courses and have never run into either one of the things you are talking about. |
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axe360 |
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B-Day: 3/26/1960 (64) |
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| Posted: Friday, September 5, 2008 at
8:10:33 PM |
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| edited by: axe360 on
Friday, September 5, 2008 at
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Well how bout naming names???
Cause I really truly doubt that any designer would go thru the very very long process of maken a course, just to make it so you couldnt make a putt...
But, I have been wrong before, how bout given us the name of a course that you have experienced this on???
I guess I am just overprotective, when you speak of uncool designers, I myself, think they are all cool....
Axe.....
Footnote: I had no probs putting on the 17th... |
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tspenik |
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| Posted: Friday, September 5, 2008 at
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| I appreciate your defending designers, but some do odd things. I am sure that you have experienced a sloping green where every time that you putt the ball, if it doesn't go into the hole, it rolls to the bottom of the slope. It takes 10 strokes. That is just crap. I have apparently touched some sensitivities. This kind of thing is just unfair to the people like myself who really appreciate your designs. and love playing the courses. I have 437 custom courses on my computer, from the '05 through '08 games. No one appreciates the designers more than I do. And I want to say again that you are fantastic. I also want to say that every thing that I have complained about is true. There are very few courses where these problems exist. If they are bugs in the course or the game, fine. If it is intentional, then at least it is out in the open. Perhaps it would be best to just close this topic. Again, I truly appreciate your work, and love you all. |
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Hyno Designs |
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B-Day: 10/30/1976 (48) |
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| Posted: Friday, September 5, 2008 at
9:23:09 PM |
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| edited by: Hyno Designs on
Friday, September 5, 2008 at
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Here is a little bit of a background of what I have been doing since day #1. I design for Dry....PGAX does Vry Dry...
British Open greens are set too standard and created to play on dry. They are never too crazy with slopes but have complex greens. St. George’s is the exception to that rule;; those greens are kind of wicked but fully playable. The Carnoustie course has a lot of little movement and a few double breaks, which is kind of the hardest thing to build in to greens.
The US Open courses on the other hard are a different animal. The courses are usually set with penal rough. The green speeds are also than altered to play faster than normal. Dry is the reference point in which I use. Usually when dealing with courses that are in the top 20 in the USA, normally I would say they have very complex greens. Many of them have lots of slopes and putts will break more than lets say a normal modern course. On these types of courses, it is important to note, that work around the green areas for the game play is supposed to be demanding and testing of all parts of your short game. This is not a fun afternoon 9 after work;; this is an attempt to make a championship simulation. Are players still going to shred the courses up? the answers is yes. Are other designers going to create the same course different? Yes. The green complexs are something that I really like building. To me it is the most creative part of building these designs.
Personally, I try to make the courses hard but fair, and sometimes you can put in pins that are unplayable. When dealing with sloped greens this is the hardest part. I use 8 to 10 pins on each green. Cause the pins are random, I sometimes never see or get a chance to test all the pins. I don’t like to set easy pins either;; I try to create specific locations for them on the greens. I try to make the player hit the correct shot in to the greens. The only way to learn this is to play the course a few times.
On Shinnecock Hills, several of the greens have very difficult slopes. Holes 2, 3, 7, 9, 10, 11, and 18. On 10 it is possible to putt the ball off the green if you are above it. I don’t mind that, however I really don’t want the player to make an x when playing a hole. I use the computer player as my tester, if they make an x, I change the pin or even the green. These greens also have a lot of fall offs, so if you go long, it will run off the green and down in to the rough/collection areas.
Before I released this course, I was running them at a 13 on the stemp. Holes like 10 and 18, I was making x. So for the public release, I slowed the greens down to like a 10.5, very similar to Merion. I felt like they were fast enough to kind of simulate this course. (;(;(;AGAIN YOU MUST PLAY THIS COURSE ON DRY, VRY DRY COULD BE UNPLAYABLE)))
I create my greens by looking at the grid in the game, if you look at the grid lines, I really try to make them smooth, so they are not choppy or move in weird directions. So if you have a sloped putt you can usually get a true roll. I try to test the player’s ability on reading greens.
In real life by looking at the grid in this game so many times it has actually helped me with reading greens. Especially on complex greens. It is weird but I can kind of see the grid on putts, and it helps a lot on like 15 foot breaks. Speed and pace can still be an issue. I have very difficult time reading pure bent greens, I find the slopes are not as visible compared to the old school poe greens. So on bent, my putting is usually a disaster.
I really dont know if their are any unplayable pins on Shinnecock, I really try my best to not let that happen. It wrecks the course. At the same time playing on Novice, on these down hill slick putts, u have to just tap it. Sometimes on 20 foot putts on this course you can run them 8 feet past, or if you chicken out and hit a wimpy putt it can run off a slope. Sometimes you are going to 3 putt, it is how this course was created, at the same time I dont want people 10 putting the holes. |
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Hyno Designs |
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B-Day: 10/30/1976 (48) |
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| Posted: Friday, September 5, 2008 at
10:29:46 PM |
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| edited by: Hyno Designs on
Friday, September 5, 2008 at
10:42:00 PM
I hate writing my grammer is complete junk !!! I have to edit these posts cause I write like a 2nd grader,,,,,,,,
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Putting on novice is a lot different than lets say expert. On expert, it is totally feel, the pace and swing of the mouse means something. Usually on Novice, you can swing really soft or really hard and your results are usually going to be same. Really short and soft you will tend to hit it shorter. On novice, sometimes on uphill putts you cant get it to the hole, you leave them short. Than you have to really jerk the mouse to get it past the hole.
The problem on novice is normally the pace is just about perfect on flatish greens. So you dont have to do any work or have any sense of a feel.
Each designer is usually going to create greens for the type of game they play. Sometimes novice greens compaired to greens created for expert are going to be designed different.
What would be the ideal putting for this game...I dont know, I would like to see a the feel of expert brought in to all levels. But than a 2009 or 2010 game would also be nice...... |
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tspenik |
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| Posted: Saturday, September 6, 2008 at
3:07:32 AM |
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To Hyno Designs:
I want to thank you for the great information, and your time in providing it. you make fine courses, and Shinnecock Hills 2008 is as well. I am going to make a copy of your posts for reference. I will give Expert a try, but I don't think that I am good enough for it to be enjoyable. On Novice I can make under par often, and have 26 Aces in '08, two of them on 310 (The Circle Course @ Nergenshuizen h13 p4 310y Double Eagle Ace.rpl) and 320 ( Chateau d`Arque h1 p4 320y Double Eagle Ace.rpl) yard par 4 holes. That is the truth. For space reasons I use a trackball on True Swing. I am retired and 72, and online play is not so appealing to me, nor is the career building process. I was a lawyer, like Homeboy, but not as good. My computer is my hobby, and Tiger Woods PGA Tour is my game. The shoot and kill games suck. Again, thank you for your help, and most of all, thank you for designing courses. Thank all of you. |
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axe360 |
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| Posted: Saturday, September 6, 2008 at
8:28:18 AM |
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Thank you tspenik, and you are right, their are some courses out their where some pins are unplayable.
I really don't think their done on purpose, as Hyno said, sometimes all the pins don't get tested.
I make my pins for very dry conditions, but for me, greens are one of the hardest things to get right..
I must agree with you though, greens that are unplayable are just no fun!!!!.
All we can do is Test Test Test and hope we got it right...
Thanks for the kind words and I hope this helps..
Axe... |
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Hyno Designs |
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B-Day: 10/30/1976 (48) |
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| Posted: Saturday, September 6, 2008 at
10:01:35 AM |
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| edited by: Hyno Designs on
Saturday, September 6, 2008 at
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One of the cool features that is not used that much is the ability to set up how you want the course to play. Granted you need to create your own texures in the 06 LC.
Basically the game is all math, so you kind of figure out what the numbers mean. It is pretty easy. If you have played a lot of golf in your life, you understand different courses play different ways.
So for example on Shinnecock, I wanted the greens to play firm and fast. I changed the speed of the greens, and to firm up the greens, I took out some of the Spin Control. So the normal spin rate from the fairway is .95 I used .8.
So why dont I change the spin rate on the greens to make it more frim?
The reason why is each texures controls how the ball reacts going in to the next texture. Also the texture is going to react in a specific way, aka you hit a cart path or in the water. If I cange the spin rate of the green it is going to effect how the ball putts, and I dont want to do that. |
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Hyno Designs |
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B-Day: 10/30/1976 (48) |
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| Posted: Saturday, September 6, 2008 at
10:27:53 AM |
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| edited by: Hyno Designs on
Saturday, September 6, 2008 at
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From watching the 2004 US Open during the revision of this course, to get similar conditions in this video game would make this course or any course, just about unplayable.
So what I did was came up with a level, that makes it playable and at the same time a little more difficult than lets say the stock course Westchester or even the National which is right next door to Shinnecock.
I stress when playing with the conditions it is very important to know what each feature does and what the numbers mean in relation to the game. It would be really easy to set up numbers that are impossible. You can set green firmness to the level of a cart path if you wanted. You could set the rough were you can only hit the ball 50 yards at most.
Now if you are a total feel player you should notice that my courses play different in the game play department. But if you understand what type of course it is, aka US Open or British Open, you know to expect those types of conditions. You than can plan your attack on the course. Playing it a few times helps.
The putter swing restriction are again due to the level of the game in which you play. It may not be present on all types of shots. But on certain types of shots you may get that type of feeling. It is not a problem with the course or game, it has to do with how the game creates your distance control playing on novice.
From my stand point I need to design around the easy distance control on novice and make you have a little more thought than just rolling the roller pad. If I can make you use skills on the shot that are different or require a tad bit more skill than I have tested your game to the point were I am happy.
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axe360 |
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| Posted: Saturday, September 6, 2008 at
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Ok, I stand corrected, from reading Hyno's last posts, their seems to be much more we can do, then just Test, Test, Test..
Good looken out...
Axe... |
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