|
|
| |
|
jurgie |
 General Member |
|
United States of America |
| |
| Joined: 11/27/2005 |
|
B-Day: 1/12/1948 (76) |
|
Posts: 192 |
| |
|
| |
| Posted: Tuesday, April 8, 2008 at
12:07:34 PM |
IP Logged |
|
| Especially true in numerous 07 and 08 customs. Most of the housing which borders the courses is quite frankly terrible. For the most part they are lifeless box-like structures with very bland coloring and little if any detail. Is the reason for this due to limitations within the game or is there just a lack of interest in creating better structure? The reason I bring this up is that most real golf courses have a significant number of private residences that are incorporated into the course design. These residences are usually very beautiful and well landscaped. They are certainly a vital part and a major contributing factor to the overall appearance. It seems to me that in earlier versions of TW, we had quite a few custom courses that had great looking residential structures. Courses that immediately come to mind were the Damma-Dammpa designs in 03 and 04. Not only were the houses nice looking, they were all meticulously landscaped and really enhanced the entire look of the course. Steve Danut mentioned that he was in the process of designing new structures and other course objects. Hopefully they will have a little more character than most of the stuff we have now. |
| |
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
| |
|
Hyno Designs |
|
General Member |
|
|
United States of America |
| |
| Joined: 10/24/2004 |
|
B-Day: 10/30/1976 (48) |
|
Posts: 751 |
| |
|
| |
| Posted: Tuesday, April 8, 2008 at
12:41:30 PM |
IP Logged |
|
jurgie,
All these issues which you keep picking up on, are basically problems from EA sports. Please understand everything that has been uploaded from 07 thru 08 are using out of date software. The game doesnt even support custom courses so you are lucky to get anything to be honest.
Guys are using the 2002 LC to create some of these structures cause the 06 stuff goes black when the shader level is not set to low. Even set to low with some of the lighting the structures still go black in places. So the 02 stuff is going to look different. Also the more detail you add to the structures the higher the poly count. Once this gets to high the game will crash. So again you are limited in what you can do. Some of these structures take tons of hours to make. It is not like someone can pop them together in 2 minutes. Even when that is done, sometimes they reflex weird of flicker when you hit shots. The only thing you can do is plant around the houses and try your best to make them look ok. Maybe some of the PGAX guys can chime in, cause they are the ones who have done the most structures for 08.
Like the ocean thing you were complaining about on Carolina Starling, well that is as good as you are going to get, when you blend a water texture in to the pano. It is the game, the only way to fix these little issues is to fix the game engine. |
| |
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
| |
|
jimi |
|
General Member |
|
|
Netherlands |
| |
| Joined: 2/24/2007 |
|
Posts: 750 |
| |
|
| |
| Posted: Wednesday, April 9, 2008 at
9:06:02 AM |
IP Logged |
|
| Well, not two minurtes maybe, but two hours is pretty normal for me. What Hyno says is true though, structures made with other library creators than the 2002 version do look bland and dark in the game, even the stock buildings. The 2002 LC structures on the other hand tend to look way too bright, so you have to account for that when you make your texture maps. As for detail. There are two ways to add that: either by applying cleverly chosen textures, or by creating the deatils in the structure itself. When you use the first method your poly counts will remain pretty low. Even the other method is quite doable, depending on the size of the object and the amount of detail. I have put loads of very complicated and hi poly structures on my courses and I have never had one crash because of it. (For examples of well lit structures see the recent PGAX courses.) |
| |
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
| |
|
jurgie |
|
General Member |
|
|
|
United States of America |
| |
| Joined: 11/27/2005 |
|
B-Day: 1/12/1948 (76) |
|
Posts: 192 |
| |
|
| |
| Posted: Wednesday, April 9, 2008 at
11:55:58 AM |
IP Logged |
|
| Thanks to both of you for your responses. Jimmi, I know there has always concern of the p count in designing a course and if I understand your comments correctly, this has become more of an issue starting in 07 with the introduction of the new game engine for TW. I was just curious as to why in earlier versions of the platform, say from 03 to 06 the majority of the buildings used showed greater detail and had an overall nicer appearance. This was especially true of residential structures. I am glad you brought up the Pgax tour course designs because I have major issues with the housing and other buildings in most of those designs. As far as the lighting of those structures, there is absolutely no problem. They are certainly not dark in appearance. It is the overall appearance of these structures that is bothersome. A couple of examples are La Quinta, and the Arnold Palmer PGA West private course. I have been on and walked most of the courses in the Palm Springs area and at no time have I ever seen buildings that even closely resembled the ones that appear in the Pgax designs. Infact, I can safely say that most if not all of these tour course recreations do not come close to simulating structures as they really appear on the actual courses. I guess what you are saying is that buildings have to look like lifeless boxes to keep the p count to a level where the course wont crash? In other words, void of any significant detail.I realize that it would be an impossibility to recreate these structures in an exact fashion as to the way they actually appear. Surely though, they could be better than what they look like presently. |
| |
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
| |
|
ZB |
|
General Member |
|
|
Scotland |
| |
| Joined: 5/15/2005 |
|
B-Day: 2/7/1963 (61) |
|
Posts: 103 |
| |
|
| |
| Posted: Wednesday, April 9, 2008 at
4:08:21 PM |
IP Logged |
|
Seems strange that you are the only person to have issue with the structures Jurgie, may i suggest that if you want better looking structures (in your opinuion) that instead of whining, you try making them yourself? Also, there is often very limited if any, information or pictures available in the public domain for any structure builders to accurately replicate these in the game. You say you have seen them for yourself in real life...ever thought of taking a few photos and sending them to the designers out in the community, so that they may have a better chance of recreating a more realistic rendition?
In my own opinion, I am not fussed about the eye candy, it is more about whether the course looks the same as the real version and whether it plays the same. But thats just my opinion.
There are designers out in the community who put a huge amount of effort into making these structures and complaining that they dont look exactly like the real thing or as pretty as they did in previous game versions, is really not on in my opinion, especially coming from someone who doesnt even attempt to provide a solution themselves. I think we are lucky to just get structures made for 08 given all the technical issues people have faced to get them into our game. |
| |
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
| |
|
Hyno Designs |
|
General Member |
|
|
|
United States of America |
| |
| Joined: 10/24/2004 |
|
B-Day: 10/30/1976 (48) |
|
Posts: 751 |
| |
|
| |
| Posted: Wednesday, April 9, 2008 at
7:06:04 PM |
IP Logged |
|
| edited by: Hyno Designs on
Wednesday, April 9, 2008 at
8:50:00 PM
|
| |
I kind of agree with Jurgie on some things, it is kind of hard to judge them to be honest. Some of the older stuff sometimes looks better, that is basically what I use. I don’t build them. Certain structures are not great, some are better than others, it is a matter of personal preference. The lighting is an issue. Do you want them to sometimes go black or do you want them to have a bright artificial look to them. I also don’t like when they flicker to me that is the thing I would like to see improved. 4 or 5 months to TW 09 !!!!
Zee, Come on, this is a video game, nothing is going to simulate like it does in real life. The ability of the player is one thing. The courses? No sorry, that is also not going to happen.
You can do things to a limit, you can build some of the features of the courses but they are still not going to play like real life.
You can even place tee markers on the courses correct. The leaderboards in natural looking spots. The trick is to get the courses to kind of look like the real course. (with planting and 3D terrain development) If one is good, they can put in the general breaks in the greens. If one is really good, they can add in some advanced gameplay features. If one is great they can make something that is visually stunning.
Even today with the terrain assist program, which lets you trace the layout and loads in the general elevations. There is still only a few courses around that actually looks like the real thing somewhat..If that is the case, I think the designer also needs to become an artist, to make it seem real. |
| |
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
| |
|
jmeier |
|
General Member |
|
|
|
United States of America |
| |
| Joined: 3/19/2007 |
|
B-Day: 8/1/1964 (60) |
|
Posts: 397 |
| |
|
| |
| Posted: Thursday, April 10, 2008 at
2:34:19 AM |
IP Logged |
|
| It was play as realistic and look as realistic as you want it can make it. My home course Edinburgh USA is so realistic in play that over 60 members of the ST Andrews Club at the course concur. All of us course members dont even need to read the breaks in the game. We played the course in the game with the same shots and the same putts. TPC Scottsdale is another one that is very very close. But to get the simulation as close as possible, expert level needs to be used to get all of the lie, grass, wind effects, and the preciseness of the shots. |
| |
| |
|
jmeier Signature |
|
| Tour Manager and Design Manager of the CGX Tour, the best place online for PGA Style tournament play on custom courses. Often imitated, never duplicated. |
|
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
| |
|
jimi |
|
General Member |
|
|
|
Netherlands |
| |
| Joined: 2/24/2007 |
|
Posts: 750 |
| |
|
| |
| Posted: Thursday, April 10, 2008 at
3:34:09 AM |
IP Logged |
|
| edited by: iyell4444 on
Thursday, April 10, 2008 at
6:04:00 AM
|
| |
| I know for a fact that if i get some decent pictures of a structure, I can build something in 3d thats pretyy close. The only issue is availability of images, or rather the lack thereof. Usually for structures that are on a course all you have to go on are some Google Earth pix that dont give you much more than the general layout and a glimpse of the roof texture. I can see Jurgies point, Id want it to look as real as possible myself. But unless he goes out to all the courses we build and takes decent pix of all the strcutures that are there, this is what we have to work with. Sorry. |
| |
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
| |
|
JSJarvis |
 Site Admin |
|
|
|
United States of America |
| |
| Joined: 1/8/2002 |
|
B-Day: 10/19/1971 (53) |
|
Posts: 1,752 |
| |
|
| |
| Posted: Thursday, April 10, 2008 at
7:33:07 PM |
IP Logged |
|
| Hyno, your last 2 posts have been removed from this thread because they did not have anything to do with the topic at hand. Please stay on topic. |
| |
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
| |
|
brucemcisaac |
|
General Member |
|
|
Canada |
| |
| Joined: 3/22/2003 |
|
B-Day: 12/27/1956 (67) |
|
Posts: 37 |
| |
|
| |
| Posted: Thursday, April 10, 2008 at
9:20:24 PM |
IP Logged |
|
I dont post a lot here but it certainly does not mean Im not proud to be a member of this site, I do add a point here of there when it topics related to design.
I agree on one point made here that really could involve more people in the design aspect of TW08, getting good images for use on objects ... the ideal are any pics of windows, walls (square) or detailed elements such as roof tiles, siding, wood slat ect ect.
Doing 3d objects is apx 2 hours of photoshop work for every few minutes in 3dmax or gmax. I would suggest if you want to see more structures on a specific course, send the designer a few large (prob min of 1000 x 1000 pixels & high quality) images if you see some. They will either use them or not but most would appreciate the effort.
On some courses the designers dont want to just throw generic houses on, especially real designs ... many would choose to use none where a real replica was not available. For many of us eye-candy ranks at the bottom of the list of things to add.
Although structures may not cause lag in the game, for most smaller video cards, at some point it may ... if it were a choice between a course that (from tee to green) played and looked exactly like the real course and one that had every house in the perimeter,lagged even a litle ... I would choose the 1st! |
| |
| |
|
brucemcisaac Signature |
|
| My best day at work still dont beat my worst day on the links |
|
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
| |
|
jurgie |
|
General Member |
|
|
|
United States of America |
| |
| Joined: 11/27/2005 |
|
B-Day: 1/12/1948 (76) |
|
Posts: 192 |
| |
|
| |
| Posted: Thursday, April 10, 2008 at
10:52:45 PM |
IP Logged |
|
| Bruce, I know where you are coming from and I agree with you wholeheartedly. I did not mean to imply that houses or other buildings inserted into a design should be an exact copy of the structure as it appears in real life. That is a totally unrealistic expectation given the limitations of the CA and so forth. Infact, I dont even care if any buildings are used. The only point I was trying to convey is that if such structures are used, that they be somewhat more attractive than a lot of them that are in use at the present time. I know they do exist because from time to time I will see them used in some designs. I know a lot of people dont care about course objects, buildings, animals and so forth. Their focus is strictly on the course design itself and nothing else. I feel that structures and other course objects enhance the beauty of the design and add a little more realism as well as atmosphere. We all know that textures, lighting and the overall look of custom course designs has improved dramatically from the early days of TW. It just seems that the structure aspect of the game has not kept pace with the rest of the overall improvements. A little landscaping around these structures instead of just plopping them in the grass would be a great improvement. We had some great designers in the past who have for whatever reason given it up, that were experts at incorporating attractive buildings into their designs complimenting them with some very nice landscaping. Lost art, I guess. |
| |
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
| |
|
jurgie |
|
General Member |
|
|
|
United States of America |
| |
| Joined: 11/27/2005 |
|
B-Day: 1/12/1948 (76) |
|
Posts: 192 |
| |
|
| |
| Posted: Thursday, April 10, 2008 at
11:04:38 PM |
IP Logged |
|
| jimi, speaking of structures, I believe the clubhouse that sits in the back of #9 green in the recently released Bearpath course is one of your designs. I had never seen it before. My compliments to you, it looks very nice. |
| |
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
| |
|
jimi |
|
General Member |
|
|
|
Netherlands |
| |
| Joined: 2/24/2007 |
|
Posts: 750 |
| |
|
| |
| Posted: Friday, April 11, 2008 at
1:37:13 AM |
IP Logged |
|
| Thank you Jurgie. |
| |
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
| |
|
Maggie |
|
General Member |
|
|
|
United States of America |
| |
| Joined: 1/23/2004 |
|
Posts: 148 |
| |
|
| |
| Posted: Friday, April 11, 2008 at
7:04:59 AM |
IP Logged |
|
Not a better structure designer and planter of such off the main course than Jimbo64 or Steve Danut and even that took a tremendous amount of time for them to do.
But designers today are handcuffed re structures. I would rather have a playable course (any thing Stef/Roger/Jeff does which is done and planted to perfection) any day of the week versus structures. (outside of tees)
Personally, I even find the leader boards annoying they just never seem to be properly done to scale. So a missing house certainly doesnt bother me.
In fact I am happy when it is not included.
But that is what makes the world go round, we all like differing things. |
| |
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
| |
|
BladeRunnerZ |
|
General Member |
|
|
South Africa |
| |
| Joined: 11/10/2007 |
|
B-Day: 9/18/1964 (60) |
|
Posts: 253 |
| |
|
| |
| Posted: Friday, April 11, 2008 at
8:41:27 AM |
IP Logged |
|
The situation is that most of the residential structures are not designed to be the focal point of the game but rather to give you a fleeting glimpse and to create the overall atmosphere of the course although a good clubhouse now and then does a lot to enhance a course.
A well designed and textured structure can look just as odd (in context of the game)if just positioned on the course without condideration of the landscaping and planting.
Its no wonder that not too many estate type courses have been done as far to much time has to be spent on the architecture, the layout and landscaping and if you want to go over the top, all the roads, how else would the residents get to their luxury mansions? (lol) |
| |
| |
|
BladeRunnerZ Signature |
|
Golf can best be defined as an endless series of tragedies obscured by the occasional miracle
|
|
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
| |
|
jurgie |
|
General Member |
|
|
|
United States of America |
| |
| Joined: 11/27/2005 |
|
B-Day: 1/12/1948 (76) |
|
Posts: 192 |
| |
|
| |
| Posted: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 at
11:59:59 AM |
IP Logged |
|
| Well it is true, different strokes for different folks. I just for some reason canot imagine a course like Habour Town Links without the residential structures that seem to line most of the fairways around the course. There is a nice variety of architecture as well as color. If we could get the structures in customs to look like those at Harbour Town it would be more than satisfactory. It is not unlike the Gallery issue. We all know these stick figures look terrible. I wish there was a way to introduce the 05 version galleries into 08 game. They were not a masterpiece, but certainly better than these. If you are going to play Augusta with a realistic approach of participating in the Masters, how do you not have galleries? |
| |
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
Post Reply
New Topic