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poohween |
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| Posted: Sunday, April 13, 2008 at
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| I am sure most of you guys on here watched the Masters as much as I did. Can anyone tell me what kind of simulation tool did they use for the hole fly overs. That looked amazing! Looked extremely well for a simulation. I was just curious to what kind of tool they used to create such a realistic view of the course. |
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| Trust your line. |
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Hyno Designs |
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| Posted: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 at
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| edited by: Hyno Designs on
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It is amazing when some one has the money to hire professionals that can do computer graphics to a tee. That is what EA sports and this game should be like. (Im not talking about custom courses, cause the tools we have are basic)
I looked at the animations in every detail and everything down to the textures was amazing. The trees seemed to be planted in the same places. The trees than seemed to be direct copies of the real trees. I saw a few times they would show were the player was on a hole and than zoom in on the graphics, to that specific point and specific tree. You could actually see some of the elevation better than on live TV. I even tried to look for flaws in the animations, and it was the best detailed work I have ever seen for computer golf.
from what I have seen over the last few years, the people who play the tiger woods game are not detail crazy, they dont care if something is mis shaped or if a bunker is supposed to be raised and it sits flat. Maybe we add an extra bunker or forget a bunker. They dont care if the yardage on the score card is 8,000 yards for a real course. They dont care if a green is 43 yards deep and we have it set to 25 yards or if the fairways is 32 wide and we have them set to 50 yards or 18 yards. They dont seem to care if the green that has a false front doesnt have a false front. They dont care if we use a substitute clubhouse cause we cant build one ourselves. For us TW designers, it is kind of good, and kind of bad. We can get away with stuff, more than likely to much stuff. My point is you put it on national TV and have millions of viewers, the detail has to be spot on in every aspect.
The only ones that have the technology to do something like the CBS Augusta would be EA sports or the Links game, they kind of choice the general route. I tested sawgrass, carnoustie, bethpage, habour town, bay hill and a few others. On the links game, Oakmont and Loch Lomond. I researched the level of detail they added or missed. What features they used from the real course and what was made up. In general, I found the results to be about 50% real 50% fictional.
The 1st course I ever played in this game was Kens Augusta 03. Just loading up the course than playing something that looked like Augusta, I was like wow. The music on the 1st tee. Than the 3rd green kind of breaks like the 3rd green. Than you get to 18 and it has the two tiers in it. You are blown away. Later after doing perception tests. You mind tends to think it is real in all aspects. Cause you start to pick up some of the things you have seen in real life or on TV. You see the Hogan Bridge...that kind of thing....You see advanced gameplay in a video game.
After playing that course, I did a few courses, than started to go further in the designs. Now I am not a terrain assist guy, nor do I trace shapes. But what I do, is get the hole to play kind of how I want it too.
On any TW course if you start to look in to the fine details, you can start to pick apart the things that are off. The closer one can get these things the better the presenation. The more these features lack the farther away from real course it becomes. Like I said before, for what ever reason most of the players dont pick up on this. Something like this CBS Augusta, if created would be the ultimate in detailed gaming.
Honestly I would pay $50 to be able to play the CBS Augusta course on my PC. |
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jmeier |
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| Posted: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 at
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| The simulation technology has existed for along time and it incorporates using real life imagery to generate models. Unfortunately there isnt really a gaming pc out there that would be capable of running such detailed video realtime, especially when incorporating the intelligence aspects of the playing part of the simulation. It is the same with flight sims and the like. There are professional grade flight simulator machines out there that use many computers setup togetrher to accomplish that. A single stand alone pc is at best able to muster up something like Microsoft Flight Sim. Even that will not really run to most of its potential on 80% or more of the home computers in existance. Also the ocst of developing such applications put it well out of the price range most people are willing to spend on a video game. Even something along the lines of flight sim X deluxe which is about 100.00 is far more than most people will play just for a game. Until sports simulation games become a professional sport, similar to first person shooters. I would hate to say it but we are stuck with what we have. EA has gotten alot like Microsoft. Too big and too slow to react and adapt to changing technology compared to the top game companies that develop the shooters. I have a feeling if it wasnt for the contract with Tiger Woods Corporation, the TW series would have already died off. |
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| Tour Manager and Design Manager of the CGX Tour, the best place online for PGA Style tournament play on custom courses. Often imitated, never duplicated. |
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Boze |
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| Posted: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 at
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| Actually Flight sim X deluxe is 49.99 at target and Im sure lower else where. |
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| XBL: xXBoze66Xx |
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jmeier |
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| Posted: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 at
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| "]Actually Flight sim X deluxe is 49.99 at target and Im sure lower else where." |
Agree, I was just using the launch price from last year until the first christmas season it was out. |
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| Tour Manager and Design Manager of the CGX Tour, the best place online for PGA Style tournament play on custom courses. Often imitated, never duplicated. |
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ZB |
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| Posted: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 at
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| edited by: ZB on
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Its interesting reading some of these posts as virtual reality is something I do actually know a little about and the company I am involved with, use such technology to build virtual 3D environments that are so lifelike, people show the same feelings and emotions as they would in the same real life situations. Although I am speaking about technology far more advanced than the stuff we all saw on TV for the Masters, it is still closely related.
What we do is to create virtual worlds for use within military circles. For example, we have created a Battle Cruisers bridge. This is inside a large naval building and the windows are in fact huge monitors all interlaced so it seems like one big picture. The Bridge itself, is a huge simulator which actually rolls and pitches like the real thing. Scenarios are then played out to train officers and the like, to monitor and measure reactions and how they work under certain pressures. The graphics are immense and to be honest, if there was such a thing as a gaming PC with the ability to run such software, youd be talking hundreds of thousands for one PC!! LOL
Another piece of work we did was to create a virtual ATC (Air Traffic Control) Tower for a military flying school. The computer graphics on this were so real, that when training foreign students once, we played a jet fighter ignoring instructions from the tower and flying in a straight line direct at the tower. The result was 15 students ducking under their desks in total fear and a few soiled uniforms!
Computer graphics are big business and I personally seriously doubt the likes of EA Sports or any other game manufacturer would actually be able to afford to take on technology such as the stuff seen on TV, let alone adapt it and then add a gaming engine to it. Certainly not for just one title and the investment required to use it on more would simply price them out of the market and then wed be left with nothing!
What we have right now, is probably the best EA can offer taking into account, budgets, investment, employee skills and affordability from their consumers. Not everyone would be willing to invest substantial cash into their PC just so they can run a game!
Instead of slamming EA as often as people seem to do these days, perhaps we should be congratulating them as they have come a long way in real terms of computer graphics for this type of computer game, whilst maintaining that even existing low end machines can still benefit from most of these changes.
One final note, the guys at EA will take less notice of peoples slams and rants than they would of people actually commending them and then perhaps suggesting a few improvements or at the very least, asking if such improvements are possible.
Just a few of my own thoughts. |
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vexxxboy |
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| Posted: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 at
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its a New Zealand company that pioneered this technology if you want to read about what they have done and see some of there work heres there web site interesting
http://www.arl.co.nz/ |
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brucemcisaac |
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| Posted: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 at
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| edited by: brucemcisaac on
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I find it interesting also that even tho EA continues to use the same format for courses that allows us to make sims, customs or fantasy designs and also still distributes the software via their ftp, some feel the glass is still half empty .... so long as we can create courses that everyone can play everyone is winning.
There will always be complaints ...some are founded and give good feedback ... - others have little value to the designers and are mainly ignored,.... Im pretty happy with the support of members here and in the entire cyber golf community. |
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| My best day at work still dont beat my worst day on the links |
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poohween |
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| Posted: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 at
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| You would think with todays technology that ALL PC games would look that nice. I would pay $100.00 for a copy of TWs, IF all the simulated courses looked that good. I know it may be hard to get EVERY detail down pat, but, if you are going to make a course, why just make it half way? If your not going to make it atleast 95% accurate, I wouldnt even bother, but that is just me. I do know that the PlayStation 3 TWs game is very similar to the graphics I saw of Augusta on CBS. I frequent my Toys R Us quite often...I was killing some time in the R Zone, where they have a PlayStation 3 running for advertising purposes. The TWs segment just happened to be playing while I was there...talk about NICE graphics. The galleries were amazingly real. The course textures were phenominal. The trees were very true. Even the golfers, including Tiger, looked very realistic for a simulation. With all the high end gaming computers, graphics cards and tools we have at our finger tips, in my opinion, I think the quality of the simulation should be better. |
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poohween Signature |
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| Trust your line. |
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Hyno Designs |
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| Posted: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 at
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| edited by: Hyno Designs on
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Ea has the ability to do something as details as this. You need access to the golf courses. Ea has that. Maybe not Augusta National, but the licensed courses they do. The platform and concept is kind of similar. The focus doesnt seem to be on PC golf.
EA owns the engine so they can fit in perfect textures they also have the ability to build custom trees and bushes. If they want to take the insane amount of time they can plot the courses like what we saw on CBS sports to a certain level.
They have the ability to create perfect shapes, build structures, textures, put in elevations, map the greens and plant. Everything is created using math. Even down to pin point locations of each an every tree. One can measure the terrain and details to get it kind of close. If this is all done, you get something that looks pretty close to what the real course looks like. With out access to the course, the resources it is going to be pretty much guesswork. You also need talent. You can’t just put a golf club in someone hands and they hit the ball like Tiger Woods. It may even depend on who you have working on it. You pull in the Star Wars CGI guys, who knows. You also need competition right now EA has none, so what they do is what we get.
It is kind of like this, you get Tiger Woods swing in the game, Jim furyk swing with the woods, and John Daly. In the old days Ty Tryon and Justin Leonard. But you don’t get Retief Goosen, Vijay or Monti. You get Palmer but not Nicklaus. That is kind of how they build these courses. They give you so much than they stop.
During last years British Open. Tiger Woods went through holes 15 thru 18 on Carnoustie playing the X-box 360 game. The details were not as good as this Augusta sim, the idea was similar. If you look at the Madden football game, and put that effort in the Tiger Woods game, it is only going to get better.
Back in college I was happy with the Sega PGA tour game, as we have seen it has only gotten better.
Seeing what I saw on CBS sports proves this concept is possible to do. It is just a matter of how much time people are willing to put in to the go extra mile. The stuff we do, these concepts are kind of not realistic, but to a general point maybe. You just try your best. Who knows what will happen in 10 years…
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jimi |
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| Posted: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 at
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| In fact if you turned a game console intoa pc, youd have quite a powerful machine. I know AI researchers who actually do that. Apart from that, Moores law says pc speeds double every 18 months or so, so in five years time at most we should be able to run much higher graphics on our machine and games could actually look like that. Our friend Hyno says EA has the technology, and maybe they do, but it has to be playable on an ordinary pc. |
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poohween |
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| Posted: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 at
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| Well, WHATEVER it takes...Im in. If it means buying a whole new setup with the ability to run those types of graphics I most definately will. For now, I think we are at the short end, of a VERY long stick, when it comes to PC gaming. I know there is better quality out there, its just a matter of time when someone will step up to the plate. Question...since EA has Tiger locked up on their PC golfing game, does that mean they have the PGA Tour, as a whole, locked up as well? Couldnt someone else (company) make an Arnold Palmer or Jack Nicklaus type of PC game? Surely, EA doesnt have the sole right to bear the PGA Tour, without someone else being able to obtain the rights to make PGA tour courses. Afterall, theres not to many other marketable golfers other than those three. |
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poohween Signature |
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| Trust your line. |
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TruBluMich |
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| Posted: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 at
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| Im watching this thread..... |
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DivotMaker |
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| Posted: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 at
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| "Question...since EA has Tiger locked up on their PC golfing game, does that mean they have the PGA Tour, as a whole, locked up as well? Couldnt someone else (company) make an Arnold Palmer or Jack Nicklaus type of PC game? Surely, EA doesnt have the sole right to bear the PGA Tour, without someone else being able to obtain the rights to make PGA tour courses. Afterall, theres not to many other marketable golfers other than those three." |
EA has the EXCLUSIVE PGA TOUR license. Other companies can make a golf game with another player and if they want a specific PGA TOUR course, they can apply for a license to reproduce it. No one else is able to produce a PGA TOUR branded game though. |
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jurgie |
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| Posted: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 at
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| Google Maya. They offer a 3D rendering software that I have been told by several people is software that is used by the TW Designing Team. Wether this is factual or not, the website offers some very interesting insights. |
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jmeier |
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| Posted: Thursday, April 17, 2008 at
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| Maya is the 3d moddeling tool used for this and most other games as well. But to use it, you need the Maya compiler to output courses for the game. I use it for creating COD4 items and it is a great peice of software but far more complicated than the ca. But still even if we had the compiler, we are stuck with a very antiquated game engine. There is some possibility that they could switch the codestream to be based on the 360 track which would improve the game engine a fair amount over the current one based from the ps2 code stream. |
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jmeier Signature |
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| Tour Manager and Design Manager of the CGX Tour, the best place online for PGA Style tournament play on custom courses. Often imitated, never duplicated. |
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poohween |
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| Posted: Thursday, April 17, 2008 at
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| Do any of you guys think the EA will EVER change the way the graphics look themselves and up the technology side of the gaming experience? I know that will cost more, the game currently sells for $39.99 and I would be willing to pay twice as much. My question is this...if they can create the type of graphics you see in XBOX and PS3, WHY cant the same type of graphics be created for PC? Those two gaming systems are very similar to our personal PCs. What makes them able to have a better looking graphics? |
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poohween Signature |
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| Trust your line. |
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BladeRunnerZ |
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| Posted: Thursday, April 17, 2008 at
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Basically it comes down to computing power. Your playstations, Xbox etc have much more computing and graphics power than your mainstream PCs and have been designed from the ground up for gaming whereas a pc has primarily been designed for business type applications.
The PC game developers only design games that they know will run on the current mainstream hardware out there. No good designing a PC game if you have to fork out thousands for a top end silicon graphics workstation just to play a game.
The hardware and software guys are continuously playing catchup with each other. PC games will eventually be at the level of current high end game consoles but by then the game consoles themselves would have taken us beyond reality. |
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Golf can best be defined as an endless series of tragedies obscured by the occasional miracle
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ZB |
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| Posted: Thursday, April 17, 2008 at
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maybe I have a duff copy but the graphics on the console versions I have are pants compared to the depth and quality on the PC.
I also realise some may be happy to pay 2 or more times the price for this game to obtain greater graphics but would thousands of others? i doubt it personally. This game is not their highest seller by any means both on PC and Console platforms.
The reason EA have invested heavily in the console versions as opposed to the PC platform, is because there are in fact, more console gamers than PC gamers buying their games and therefore, more sales on a particular platform = more budget available to invest on that platform. Simple economy. |
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jimi |
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| Posted: Thursday, April 17, 2008 at
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| Damn the economy LOL |
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