|
|
| |
|
TruBluMich |
 Site Admin |
|
United States of America |
| |
| Joined: 9/11/2001 |
|
B-Day: 9/11/1978 (47) |
|
Posts: 1,236 |
| |
|
| |
| Posted: Friday, January 4, 2008 at
2:19:12 AM |
IP Logged |
|
| edited by: TruBluMich on
Friday, January 4, 2008 at
5:15:00 AM
|
| |
I am not going to go into detail about what course Im talking about or what designer.
I was contacted by a very well known architect that is a member of the American Society of Golf Course Architects(ASGSA). A course that he designed in the Mid-West United States is available for download.
|
| "I have noticed that my design of ????????????? is being distributed by your site for use with the Tiger Woods video golf game. I would like to know who gave you permission or contracted you to distribute my design." |
I responded back...
|
"??????,
I do apologize if you have tried contacting me before.
The course that bares the name ????????????? on this site was created by ?????. There are very few courses that we actually create as a site, we simply host the files on the site at no cost.
Under our terms of use:
..all courses are hosted under the provision that the work produced is free FROM copyright, free FROM fees, and free for any information, graphics or details that may otherwise require payment. In the event of a file requiring the payment of royalties CourseDownloads.com, will not be liable in any way, shape or form. All fees resulting in the production of any said file hosted on our site are the responsibility of the curator. If the file which we host here is a real rendition then these same rules apply, it is the responsibility in full of the designer for any correspondence with the real course and the owners of said course...
If any of these terms of use have been violated by ?????, please let me know.
I would try contacting ????? directly to answer some of the other questions you may have.
I appreciate you taking the time to contact me in regards to this matter and look forward to hearing FROM you again in regards to this." |
Well the response I got FROM ?????? was not quite what I excpected...
|
"Thank you for your prompt reply. I have consulted with my attorney and am in the process of preparing responses with regard to this situation.
??????, ASGCA" |
As of right now I have not removed the course FROM the site, I am awaiting response FROM ??????s attorney. I am with holding names right now because the ASGCA member who designed this course has been polite in regards to the matter. I just felt that the members of this site deserved to hear about it.
I talked with the designer of the the cyber-version and was notified that yes indeed a email was sent to both the ASGCA designer and the golf course itself in regards to creating a PC version of the course...they did not respond.
This has been thrown around at least 100 times in the last 7 years about real course designs. Ive gotten advice FROM attorneys in regards to it and read countless debates on the lagality in forums. But to my knowledge this is the first time I have ever heard of a real life designer having an issue with the PC version being available.
Now a I can see how a real world designer could have a problem with one of thier courses being created on the PC without thier knowledge. They spend alot of time creating a course. If a PC Version doesnt capture that. Somone who may have wanted to play that course in real life plays it on the PC and doesnt like it. May not want to play any of thier real courses. However the design in question creates a very real feeling, I have not played the real course, but I live 1 hour 35 minutes away, so I do plan on playing it this summer.
My request to the designer, and anyone else who may be in the know, of this course please do not disclose any information into regards to the name of the ASGCA member or the course until hearing FROM the ASGCA members attorney. At which time I will disclose more information.
My personal feelings are that the cyber-architect did not do anything worng.tp
|
| |
| |
|
TruBluMich Signature |
|
| Thank you for visiting CourseDownloads.com |
|
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
| |
|
jimi |
 General Member |
|
|
Netherlands |
| |
| Joined: 2/24/2007 |
|
Posts: 750 |
| |
|
| |
| Posted: Friday, January 4, 2008 at
9:08:42 AM |
IP Logged |
|
| This reminds me of the case of the Warner Brothers lawyer who wrtoe to Grouche Marx while he and his brothers weren preparing their A Night in Casablanca movie, pointing out that the rights to the name Casablanca belonged to WB. To which Groucho replied that he wasnt aware that the Warner Brothers at some point in the past had sailed all the way to Morocco to found the city. Or something like that. That settled the case, I believe. It does seem a bit childish by ***** and his lawyers. |
| |
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
| |
|
CarnoustieTW |
|
General Member |
|
|
Scotland |
| |
| Joined: 1/8/2002 |
|
B-Day: 5/16/1959 (66) |
|
Posts: 264 |
| |
|
| |
| Posted: Friday, January 4, 2008 at
12:45:19 PM |
IP Logged |
|
we have been throught this a long time ago,Golf Courses do not carry a copyright,if they have a logo that may be covered by trademark law but that would be down to each course or designer,I dont know what this guy hopes to gain,the course does not cost anything to download,in fact there is a bandwith cost to the site having the course avalible for download.
Maybe he would like to make a donation to the site for the free exposure of his course,people may go on vacation to the area of the course and want to play it for real because they played a likeness of it on the TW video game,I`m sure the course pays for adds in various publications,here its free. |
| |
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
| |
|
Hyno Designs |
|
General Member |
|
|
United States of America |
| |
| Joined: 10/24/2004 |
|
B-Day: 10/30/1976 (49) |
|
Posts: 752 |
| |
|
| |
| Posted: Friday, January 4, 2008 at
12:57:15 PM |
IP Logged |
|
| edited by: Hyno Designs on
Friday, January 4, 2008 at
1:10:00 PM
|
| |
Here is what I know on the matter. Some golf courses have copyrights on every hole on the course. Only a few are in the USA (Augusta, Pine Valley, Merion). So for example, if you take a picture and sell it, you infringe on that. However if you create a painting or a graphic picture that is not a perfect clone copy (it is not the same) so there is no copyright. I would say 99% of golf courses don’t have any kind of copyright on the holes.
http://www.hartough.com/Frame_Gallery.asp
Go to Linda’s website, she is a golf painter, I don’t know, ask her how she is able to create all these paintings of real golf holes.
I do know sometimes a golf course will hire her to paint specific holes (than they do some kind of contract on royalty fees.) Not really sure on how this all works...... |
| |
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
| |
|
DivotMaker |
|
General Member |
|
|
|
United States of America |
| |
| Joined: 1/8/2000 |
|
Posts: 263 |
| |
|
| |
| Posted: Friday, January 4, 2008 at
1:43:08 PM |
IP Logged |
|
|
"
My request to the designer, and anyone else who may be in the know, of this course please do not disclose any information into regards to the name of the ASGCA member or the course until hearing from the ASGCA members attorney. At which time I will disclose more information.
My personal feelings are that the cyber-architect did not do anything worng." |
Please keep us informed on how/if this progresses. If need be, I can contact EA and get their Legal Dept. involved if needed. This is really a non-issue, copyright or not because the designer was not SELLING or PROFITING from the design and/or release of this course.
Best Regards,
-Tim |
| |
| |
|
DivotMaker Signature |
|
| Asus Maximus Formula X38 / C2D E6850 / 4 GB DDR 6400 / ATI HD 4870 X2 / WD Raptor 150 GB / Viewsonic VX2835 28 1080p / Logitech Digital 5500 / Vista 32 |
|
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
| |
|
Hiker Bob |
|
General Member |
|
|
|
United States of America |
| |
| Joined: 11/19/2005 |
|
B-Day: 6/8/1962 (63) |
|
Posts: 100 |
| |
|
| |
| Posted: Friday, January 4, 2008 at
4:25:04 PM |
IP Logged |
|
| So let me see if I can demonstrate a similar situation. I go to Carmel and paint a picture of the 7th hole of Pebble Beach. I then hang that picture in my living room. My brother Bill comes over, looks at the picture which I am not selling, then vows to never play there because my painting is so bad. Now I owe the Pebble Beach architect damages for my brothers reaction. Get real.... |
| |
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
| |
|
jmwall24 |
|
General Member |
|
|
|
United States of America |
| |
| Joined: 9/2/2003 |
|
B-Day: 4/24/1983 (42) |
|
Posts: 30 |
| |
|
| |
| Posted: Friday, January 4, 2008 at
4:42:47 PM |
IP Logged |
|
| Im sorry, but if no one is making money off of the cyber design of these courses I really dont get where any legal action comes into play. I could see if a game manufacturer (like EA) was making real courses without permission and including them with the game, but this seems a little rediculous to me. |
| |
| |
|
jmwall24 Signature |
|
| Go Wings! |
|
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
| |
|
Hyno Designs |
|
General Member |
|
|
|
United States of America |
| |
| Joined: 10/24/2004 |
|
B-Day: 10/30/1976 (49) |
|
Posts: 752 |
| |
|
| |
| Posted: Friday, January 4, 2008 at
6:43:24 PM |
IP Logged |
|
| Well, a few seasons ago, a designer created East Lake, I happen to know the pro their. I contacted him for information on the course. At that time he had told me that EA Sports tried to purchase the rights to build it for a video game. East Lake at that time had no interest in their course being released in a video game. I explained to him, that the course was being created via for non-profit, using a course architect program supplied by EA sports. I also explained the process of how these courses are created. He checked with their legal department. Everything was fine, than assisted the designer and myself, with yardage books and a few details about the course. Funny thing is in 2008 I guess they gave in to EA and let them create the course. The point being this, East Lake is a high-end golf course, and their legal departments found nothing wrong with someone attempting to simulate their course were no profits were made. So I will be interested to see how this entire thing pans out. |
| |
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
| |
|
xxxxwhiz |
|
General Member |
|
|
Canada |
| |
| Joined: 3/5/2002 |
|
Posts: 9 |
| |
|
| |
| Posted: Friday, January 4, 2008 at
7:32:09 PM |
IP Logged |
|
If this person is contacting you via E-mail, and did so without first contacting his lawyer, I myself would be very suspicious of who this person really is.... I am a professional and own copyrights myself to certain writings, the first thing I would do if I felt someone was using something of mine to gain something, would be to contact my lawyer, I would never contact the party myself.
The law is fairly clear, however.... the person with the copyright must prove that some monetary gain and or monetary loss has occurred because of the said Infringement
I wouldnt lose a minutes sleep unless the lawyers letter arrives.... and even then, its only a letter. |
| |
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
| |
|
Boze |
|
General Member |
|
|
|
United States of America |
| |
| Joined: 1/29/2006 |
|
B-Day: 1/1/1901 (124) |
|
Posts: 479 |
| |
|
| |
| Posted: Friday, January 4, 2008 at
8:50:09 PM |
IP Logged |
|
Seems rediculous to me, over a game, but found this interesting , mainly #2.
http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html |
| |
| |
|
Boze Signature |
|
| XBL: xXBoze66Xx |
|
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
| |
|
quinlan roch |
|
General Member |
|
|
|
United States of America |
| |
| Joined: 11/24/2006 |
|
B-Day: 12/31/1990 (34) |
|
Posts: 94 |
| |
|
| |
| Posted: Saturday, January 5, 2008 at
3:35:02 AM |
IP Logged |
|
As in Bozekahns poted link, this would be an odd combination of fanart (which as stated usually benefits the original creator) and #2. This also relates directly towards the fact that in most cases, the architect of said course turns a blind eye towards fanart because of the benefits.
Most important though, What is said value of a course design? it is a piece of art afterall and as all other works of art, it would be an infringement of copyrights if said person were to even base a design off of such a course as said in bozekahns link.
Though, I have to admit the architect is overreacting and maybe not directly understanding the exact operations in which hes charging against. I have a feeling he just is trying at more of a monetary gain for his artwork. If I or anyone else were to just to talk about these particular things in person to said architect, I beleive our problems would be solved.
Hey Hyno, almost everything created privately and originally after April 1, 1989 is copyrighted and protected no matter what it is. For example, If i were to paint an original painting, it would be automatically copyrighted. |
| |
| |
|
quinlan roch Signature |
|
Danut Golf is Awesome!!!!!!!!!!!
What can I Say? The world is cruel... |
|
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
| |
|
ZB |
|
General Member |
|
|
|
Scotland |
| |
| Joined: 5/15/2005 |
|
B-Day: 2/7/1963 (62) |
|
Posts: 103 |
| |
|
| |
| Posted: Saturday, January 5, 2008 at
8:25:17 AM |
IP Logged |
|
During a brief discussion with a fellow designer earlier today, he left me with a point regarding actual ownership of any non-EA designed course.
As we have to use EA Software in order to create our designs and EA freely supplied this software in the purchase of an original game, is it not EA who actually own our designs? If so, then surely this person should be taking any potential issue they have, up with EA directly?
With regard my own thoughts as to the persons question over permission to distribute his design, well, strictly speaking, what right then, does Google Earth (and all the other satalite imagery organisations out there including the world governments and Space Agencies LOL) have, to send a satalite or airborne transport over a particular course or area of land that includes said course, take a photograph then freely distribute it? (and in some cases, charge for the images)
If any action could possibly be taken out against a game course designer (and keep in mind the TW series was not the first to feature a course architect facility) it would surely open a massive can of worms for the majority of the modern world of Government and commerce! LOL
It is also highly unlikely that the game course designer has actually got hold of the original design blueprints/land plans and therefore, strictly speaking, there has been no distribution of this persons design.
What we do as game course designers, in many cases, is to simply use resources that are freely available in the public domain, such as, using photos, reference material from club websites and obtaining a layout from Google Earth and using the DEMs that are freely available at the USGS site, to plot the layout into EAs software.
The only thing that we might be taken to task on, is any recreation of actual copywrite images such as, logos, club signage etc and that will only be if the actual course designer, really owns such material rights which is unlikely, as they would normally reside with the actual club or holding company in question. For this useage, it is always advisable to see permission from the appropriate people.
I really cant see this going anywhere and in the vastly unlikely possibilty of it doing so, then I would ask the question again, as to who would by law, actually be the owner of any design we create.
Zee |
| |
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
| |
|
UserDBaran |
|
General Member |
|
|
|
Canada |
| |
| Joined: 1/6/2006 |
|
B-Day: 4/18/1963 (62) |
|
Posts: 15 |
| |
|
| |
| Posted: Saturday, January 5, 2008 at
5:15:42 PM |
IP Logged |
|
| edited by: UserDBaran on
Saturday, January 5, 2008 at
5:21:00 PM
|
| |
|
"
As we have to use EA Software in order to create our designs and EA freely supplied this software in the purchase of an original game, is it not EA who actually own our designs?
" |
... I guess that means Microsoft owns every document you create with MS Word, and Adobe owns every graphic you design using Photoshop ... one thing is for sure - the dessert definitely owns the sand in your shorts ... |
| |
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
| |
|
ZB |
|
General Member |
|
|
|
Scotland |
| |
| Joined: 5/15/2005 |
|
B-Day: 2/7/1963 (62) |
|
Posts: 103 |
| |
|
| |
| Posted: Saturday, January 5, 2008 at
7:27:23 PM |
IP Logged |
|
| simply asking the question but thx for pointing out the obvious flaw in my post lol. |
| |
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
| |
|
quinlan roch |
|
General Member |
|
|
|
United States of America |
| |
| Joined: 11/24/2006 |
|
B-Day: 12/31/1990 (34) |
|
Posts: 94 |
| |
|
| |
| Posted: Monday, January 7, 2008 at
9:58:08 PM |
IP Logged |
|
| edited by: quinlan roche on
Monday, January 7, 2008 at
10:03:00 PM
More info |
| |
you cant copyright satelitte imagery, thats a whole nother story
plus, the layout is built into the course, even if its not perfect it is still considered illegal to distibute a design if it is even based off of something that is copyrighted.
That is why Jk Rowling is being sued because she uses mythical characters FROM other books.
Oh heck, why am I even doing this...
Just talk to the guy who started this mess and for now lets not make a big deal about it until we know for sure whats going to happen |
| |
| |
|
quinlan roch Signature |
|
Danut Golf is Awesome!!!!!!!!!!!
What can I Say? The world is cruel... |
|
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
| |
|
TruBluMich |
|
Site Admin |
|
|
|
United States of America |
| |
| Joined: 9/11/2001 |
|
B-Day: 9/11/1978 (47) |
|
Posts: 1,236 |
| |
|
| |
| Posted: Tuesday, January 8, 2008 at
12:16:58 AM |
IP Logged |
|
| I havent heard anything from either the architect or his attorney I will keep everyone posted as soon as I hear something. |
| |
| |
|
TruBluMich Signature |
|
| Thank you for visiting CourseDownloads.com |
|
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
| |
|
jmwall24 |
|
General Member |
|
|
|
United States of America |
| |
| Joined: 9/2/2003 |
|
B-Day: 4/24/1983 (42) |
|
Posts: 30 |
| |
|
| |
| Posted: Wednesday, January 9, 2008 at
7:37:54 PM |
IP Logged |
|
| The longer this goes without any word the more it seems like it is really just a hoax... |
| |
| |
|
jmwall24 Signature |
|
| Go Wings! |
|
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
| |
|
TruBluMich |
|
Site Admin |
|
|
|
United States of America |
| |
| Joined: 9/11/2001 |
|
B-Day: 9/11/1978 (47) |
|
Posts: 1,236 |
| |
|
| |
| Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2008 at
8:00:43 AM |
IP Logged |
|
|
| "The longer this goes without any word the more it seems like it is really just a hoax..." |
I wouldnt call it a hoax. The architect does checks out from the research Ive done.
This is pretty much new to everyone, Ive done some checking with other game sites that host real content for games and they have never heard of anything like this ever being brought up. Could you imagine Boeing going after someone for creating a plane similare to one of theres for MS Flight Sim or the architect of a building going after someone for creating a building for Sim City????
As I ve said ?????? has been very polite and has not made any threats, or asked for the files to be pulled, other then saying he was in contact with his attorney he has been very polite.
I stand behind the cyber-arch of this course did nothing wrong nor have any others who have created real courses for the game or any other game for that matter. |
| |
| |
|
TruBluMich Signature |
|
| Thank you for visiting CourseDownloads.com |
|
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
| |
|
Otto Kriete |
|
General Member |
|
|
|
United States of America |
| |
| Joined: 3/28/2004 |
|
B-Day: 12/1/1953 (72) |
|
Posts: 270 |
| |
|
| |
| Posted: Friday, January 11, 2008 at
8:49:12 AM |
IP Logged |
|
| When I first read TBMs post, I was irritated at the thought that said architect was being so petty. Upon reflection ( and being reminded that the architect was polite and merely said that he would need to consult with his attorney), it occurred to me that he might be concerned that , in order to protect his creation from bona-fide infringement, he would have to take action in such complimentary work as this. Hopefully, his attorney rules in favor of the user community. Lets not jump to conclusions about this guy without having all the information. |
| |
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
| |
|
gutshot74a |
|
General Member |
|
|
|
United States of America |
| |
| Joined: 1/5/2005 |
|
Posts: 2 |
| |
|
| |
| Posted: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 at
7:52:25 PM |
IP Logged |
|
Its an interesting discussion.
A couple of things:
1) Playing any of the TW 08 courses, most people on these sites can obliterate such venerable courses as Pebble Beach, The Old Course, and through Course Architect Augusta National and others. I could see concern about cheapening the value of the course its a rather dopey concern, but if someone sees that you can shoot -22 on Augusta National, it might smite a few stuffed collars at that club. But overall, its just a game, and its not like Augusta is a public course.
2) I could see if someone was profitting, either by selling the course or by conducting real cash tourneys over the design. And in general, the virtual designer almost invariably gives credit in the deions to the real designer. Theres no question of stealing identity or credit, the virtual designer is more a recreator than anything.
I think its pretty baseless. As long as its for funny money, I cant see them wasting their money on such a meaningless lawsuit.
|
| |
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
Post Reply
New Topic