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poohween |
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| Posted: Saturday, June 9, 2007 at
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This question is for any course architect, I guess. I noticed that on some courses like Medinah, TPC at Avenel, Oakmont, etc. that the very dry greens seem to quite faster, than other courses very dry greens. You can tell when you play Avenel, and Medinah, when you hit an approach shot into the green, it has a harder thud sound, than some other courses I have played on the same setting? Why is some courses very dry greens slicker, and faster than other courses? I guess its in the design. Its just an observation that I have noticed, and was seeing if anyone else thought the same way.
Chuck |
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Quietly |
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| Posted: Saturday, June 9, 2007 at
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The sound is irrelevant as they are just pre-recorded sounds. Any difference you noticed is random. When designers make custom textures for their courses, they can set a sound for when the ball impacts a texture such as a green (there is one standard “green” sound) In some cases, they may simply forget to set the sound (the default is no sound) so the game will just make the ball sound like its bouncing off dirt. In either case, sound and the roll of the greens are completely unrelated.
Designers can also make custom settings for their textures, such as increasing or decreasing the hardness and roll speed of greens. This is most likely what you are experiencing. Some designers simply like tweaked greens. |
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poohween |
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| Posted: Saturday, June 9, 2007 at
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Ok, that may explain it. But I know, for a fact, that Oakmont has the fastest, very dry greens of ANY other courses I have played. True, Oakmont greens have quiet a bit of slope, but these greens are like putting on glass, compared to other very dry greens, on other courses. I was just wondering what was the difference maker.
Chuck |
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big9324 |
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| Posted: Sunday, June 10, 2007 at
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"Ok, that may explain it. But I know, for a fact, that Oakmont has the fastest, very dry greens of ANY other courses I have played. True, Oakmont greens have quiet a bit of slope, but these greens are like putting on glass, compared to other very dry greens, on other courses. I was just wondering what was the difference maker.
Chuck" |
Thats because they were tricked up to be that way. Designers have to be careful when doing this because if people dont know its been done, it pisses them off.
Even a warning in the course notes most times isnt enough. Im a firm believer in letting the people play the way they want, not how someone else does. The greens are plenty fast on v dry settings and when u add to the speed, then its crazy and not fun.
Thats just my opinion.
big |
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poohween |
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| Posted: Sunday, June 10, 2007 at
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| I like the speed of Oakmonts greens, on very dry. I wish more designers made their VERY dry greens a little faster, like Oakmont. That is because we have two dry settings, ones who like them scary fast, and just a little scary. I have putted on greens in real life that the stimp was 13.5. With some of the same sloping as Oakmont has. Those were frustrating, but I throughly enjoyed trying to get it close, and putting in general. Those type of greens you just need to lag putt. JMO. |
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poohween Signature |
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Hyno Designs |
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| Posted: Sunday, June 10, 2007 at
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Thanks for taking notice about Oakmont. At the same time, I cant believe you would even attempt playing Oakmont on Very Dry, I would think some of the pins or putts would get to be unfair for sure. Personally I design for a dry setting at max. Oakmont is fast !!! They were set up that way. What I wanted was, the feeling of playing ultra fast surfaces were the ball actually dies in to the cups. If you hit to the wrong side, you will 3 putt. I also wanted the greens speeds, pin placements and shot selection to be keys in scoring around a course like Oakmont.
It is very tricky creating some of these massive sloped greens for sure.
My greens speeds are like this for 07. Augusta and Merion are the same (faster than normal). Oakmont is the fastest. The British Open courses are normal. On greens I am kind of picky also, I want them to roll a certain way, or create challenges with specific pin placements and areas on the green. |
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big9324 |
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| Posted: Sunday, June 10, 2007 at
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No offence but there is a huge difference in v dry on novice and v dry on advanced and expert. When you take the tempo out of the swing, as in novice, v dry doesnt matter how fast it is or v wet is the same as well.
This isnt a knock on novice players at all, just a fact. The only reason I mention it is Ive seen you setting games online several times, poooh, and they were always novice.
If you hit the ball the same as you would any other time you choose v dry and suddenly your miss is 20 yrds past the hole or more, now youve added a minimum of 2 extra strokes to your score, trying to get back.
I dont know about everyone else, but I dont like lugging a crystal ball around the course to tell me if a designer has taken it upon themselves to tweek the normal speeds. I have a hard enough time as it is, lol.
big
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| Posted: Sunday, June 10, 2007 at
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| edited by: Hyno Designs on
Sunday, June 10, 2007 at
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Biggie,
This is not even a debate here, this is 1 course out of 200. So you dont need a CRYSTAL BALL, cause you knew even before the course was released the greens were altered to be faster. This course really didnt get much notice at all, until now it is US OPEN week. The course has been here for months, and their really has not been any complaints about the greens. The course is what it is, an attempt at a US OPEN simulation. |
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PatchMcDivot |
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| Posted: Sunday, June 10, 2007 at
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well
thanks for the attempt |
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poohween |
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| Posted: Monday, June 11, 2007 at
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You are right big, I play novice. But, no matter my skill level I did in fact, called Oakmont right on the nose, per the designer! No matter what level you play at, you should recognize the difference in green speed. I love playing Oakmont on Very Dry, and Very Difficult! I have played, quiet a few onliners on Oakmont. I have set it at very dry, very difficult. I have had THREE (3) gamers quit after the SECOND hole, because they were +12, and +17, or MORE. The slope of the greens on this course kill even the best of players. I hardly can get anyone to play this course. Anyway, thanks Hyno for creating a monster!! No complaints here! Can you create any Charleston, SC courses??
Chuck |
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big9324 |
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| Posted: Monday, June 11, 2007 at
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"Biggie,
This is not even a debate here, this is 1 course out of 200. So you dont need a CRYSTAL BALL, cause you knew even before the course was released the greens were altered to be faster. This course really didnt get much notice at all, until now it is US OPEN week. The course has been here for months, and their really has not been any complaints about the greens. The course is what it is, an attempt at a US OPEN simulation." |
Perhaps I should have been more clear. I wasnt referring to this course in general, but more so any course with trumped up speeds. Ive never played your version of this course so whatever I supposedly knew wouldnt matter.
This topic was about v dry green speeds and had your course as an example. It wouldnt have mattered whos course was used, my feelings on designers taking the liberty of deciding how I play the game are the same.
What I stated above is still fact. Novice play is one way and thats fine. Advanced and Expert are much different.
Anything other than that is my opinion, and Ive offered it as such.
big |
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| Posted: Monday, June 11, 2007 at
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Well BIG THIS IS YOUR DIRECT QUOTE from THE OAKMONT2007 POST
This is just my opinion but perhaps you should leave the green settings as they are in the LC and not speed them up any. What Ive found over the years is not many people read the course notes before playing. Then, suddenly, they get in a game and freak out when shots go haywire compared to what they are used to.
I know the desired result of the design is to be as close to real as possible but when a designer starts playing God, so to speak, with someone elses game settings, it mostly backfires, causing people to come back and leave very negative comments.
As a player I know I wouldnt continue a game that had drastically altered speed settings, especially on the greens. With that in mind, as a designer, I would just leave the lc settings as they were and strongly urge players to use the v dry settings in order to get the most accurate real course conditions.
Once again this is just my opinion
What ever the case, this is just a video game, on any real course that has faster greens than normal, it is pretty cool to be able to add some extra speed to them, that is just my opinion.......This is freeware, and how any designer wishes to create their course is totally up to them. If someone wants to make a course called THE SWAMP, and put hazards in the fairway, hazards everywhere, well they can do it. If they want to build hills in the greens and put the pin on top they can. The player may shoot 97, which I did.
The player than does have the right to comment on the course. Good or Bad...... |
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TigerShark! |
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| Posted: Monday, June 11, 2007 at
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| edited by: TigerShark! on
Monday, June 11, 2007 at
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| Ok Hyno, then if its true in a few of your other posts in this thread, as you say that The player than does have the right to comment on the course. Good or Bad...... and Personally I design for a dry setting at max. On greens I am kind of picky also, I want them to roll a certain way, or create challenges with specific pin placements and areas on the green, then this player thinks you should be more worried about most of your courses crashing to desktop and solving that problem you seem to have when designing than spending such an inordinate amount of time tricking up your greens. But then thats just this players opinion, which you say I have the right to give. Big wasnt bashing you at all. It seems as if youve taken his posts personal which they werent intended to be. |
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big9324 |
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| Posted: Monday, June 11, 2007 at
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Hyno, this is a good topic for discussion and thats why I have been reluctant to address you personally. However, if your looking to be abused feel free to start a new topic reguarding life in Hynosville or how overplanting = complex and Ill gladly reply to you directly.
I do appreciate your posting my quote from ANOTHER THREAD which directly was related to you. It solidifies my comments here on green speeds in general. Your attempts to hijack this thread are lame. Please try and comprehend what Im saying and if you have other opinions then offer them. Thats what a group discussion is all about.
Your course just happens to be an example on the subject of designer changed green speeds. If I were speaking directly about you I would have used your name and course in my replies. In order to prevent any further misunderstandings, please know that if I am referring to you or anything you do, I will directly mention your name or course. That is a concept you have failed to grasp, I know.
Now, back to the topic. Pooh, I see your point on the love of extreme greens, but the example you give is the exact reason I dont like, or dont use, trumped up speeds on textures. While you may love to shoot extreme high scores on next to impossibe greens, the majority of the people dont. There is nothing enjoyable about having a putt or several putts, miss the cup and roll further than you had to hit to the cup in the 1st place.
Greens are intended to be tough but not unfair or unrealistic. Good greens always have a fair area to compensate for close missed shots. The idea of having a putt clip the edge or miss by a few inches only to roll another 20 yrds or back at your feet is not realistic or fun for most people. Thats why you get the people who quit.
However a designer wants to make their course is up to them. I base my opinion on personal experience and from others experiences based on feedback I see and hear. Im not telling anyone they are wrong, just how I feel.
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poohween |
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| Posted: Monday, June 11, 2007 at
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I understand everyones point. I didnt want this to turn into an unfriendly thread. I just wanted to see if anyone else noticed the very dry greens, thats it. All I would like to see is that when playing on very dry greens, all course designers get together, and make ONE very dry greens texture. Hyno is not the only one, who creates courses with faster than NORMAL, very dry greens. Medinah and WInged Foot West greens are really quick on very dry, and the latest new course, TPC @ Avenel plays very similar to Oakmont, but not created by Hyno. I dont want this to get ugly about course designing in general. I know NOTHING about designing courses, its just a mere observation I made. Anyway, I like ALL courses that you very talented designer create, thanks in advance for any future creations.
Chuck
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big9324 |
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| Posted: Monday, June 11, 2007 at
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| edited by: big9324 on
Monday, June 11, 2007 at
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| It very well could be that some of the courses you mention have the same texture for greens. Once its set, whoever uses it gets the speeds it made with. |
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Hyno Designs |
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| Posted: Monday, June 11, 2007 at
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| edited by: Hyno Designs on
Monday, June 11, 2007 at
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On golf courses like Wingfoot or Oakmont, they are different than the norm for sure. Those two are just about the hardest courses in USA.
Avenel, has pure bent greens and they are also pretty fast...
I dont mind talking about this TOPIC at all....No this is not a HIJACK thread....Oakmont was singled out, just like Wingfoot and Avenel. Hopefully the designers of those two, can speak up.
I do agree, if a designer uses custom textures, that the properities have been changed / altered, it adds a big time uncertainly. I thought about doing a readme file with the textures. At the same time if someone emails me, or PM my account here, I would try to explain what was done.
I dont thing their is anything wrong with it for sure, and it is nice when the designer writes a note in the course comments that the greens are faster than normal.
Oakmont is really the only course that I have, that the greens speeds are insane. This was only done in 07, the reason why it was done, is because the real greens are just that fast....
I just heard a story about the greens at Oakmont. This guys was putting from above the pin, putted his ball off the green and lost it in the rough....I dont know what else to say, these greens are sloped and very very fast in real life. #10 is just about impossible to hold. from a course designing standpoint, it is going to be nice to see the course on TV, and try to pick up on the details that are off....It is also going to be cool to see how the best players in the world tackle this monster of a course, and for sure the winning score is going to be interesting. Wingfoot was +5........
JUST FOUND THIS ON THE WEB...
Once on the undulating greens, putts move like theyve been hit on pavement, reaching speeds up to 13.5 on the Stimpmeter. The putting surfaces are something that the club takes great pride in, featuring the original grass that cannot be grown anywhere else in the world.
They are legendary and certainly the USGA cannot come to Oakmont and not have fast putting greens. These greens are scary fast, and I defy anybody to find a course in championship golf with scarier greens than Oakmont, added Mike Davis, senior director of rules and competition for the USGA. |
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poohween |
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| Posted: Monday, June 11, 2007 at
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I know this weekend will be a definate challenge for the best in the world at Oakmont. Dont get me wrong for one minute. I LIKE the fast, scary, greens that you created at Oakmont. It SHOULD play very tough, and a little unfair. Its the US Open for christ sake! Thanks for letting us experience the real life play on this course in your creation. In my opinion, normal, wet and very wet greens have to be the easiest to play on. When you play in these settings, you can fire at the pin at will, and the ball sticks like glue, usually leaving you a 5-7 putt. With very dry greens, at Oakmont, Medinah, Avenel, Kiawah, and Winged Foot West you hit anything below a 6 iron (full) into the greens its hard to get it to stick. Now if you hit your approach shot with high spin, or drop down a club and power shot it, you create a sharper angle of trajectory into the greens, therefore you will be able to get it close. I ALWAYS play on very dry greens, youll never see me set a round with nothing other than very dry. If I do, its at the request of a fellow (friend) gamer. I can play wet or very wet, but there is no real challenge to the greens like it is on VD. Playing wet greens is like dropping a golf ball on your mattress. Very dry is like droping a golf ball on your driveway, its the challenge I like, and I appreciate everyones input! Thanks.
Chuck |
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Danut Golf |
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| Posted: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 at
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| "All I would like to see is that when playing on very dry greens, all course designers get together, and make ONE very dry greens texture. Chuck" |
Chuck, I definitely see your point here. The same thing goes for the other textures as well. There are default settings for each texture in the library creator, and messing with them is not a game for the inexperienced. I have tricked up greens for only one course and that was several years ago and even they were playable on all conditions. To get all the designers to agree on one setting? That is like getting congress to agree on anything - lol. It should be stated in a library - not the course notes - but in the library notes for all designers to see as well as players, to note if the greens or any other textures have been altered from the default levels. This can be done easily in the display of the library creator itself. You could list a fast green as greens - fast, or some such similarity. When a library is made with adjusted settings, another designer using that same library has no idea whether the settings have been changed unless there is information there to tell them.
And the players - especially the Expert players - would like definite knowledge beforehand, since they have no caddy to help them judge distances.
Hopefully some day those who alter the textures from the stock settings will help the others out with this knowledge.
Steve |
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axe360 |
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| Posted: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 at
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| edited by: axe360 on
Tuesday, June 12, 2007 at
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I agree Steve, heck, I never would have even known this was done, until I just happend to read this thread..
It sure would be helpful to know.......
PEACE |
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